[X] My Assistant

[TommyTwoToes]

Well actually the rules are quite clear.
You start at two and may raise them up to force.


Thats very easy to understand I guess.

No problems there, except that the rules are not clear, as evidenced by the ammount of debate that occurs on how they work.

This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums
and maximums for all attributes.

Well, this wording is quite strange, but in the context it is easy to understand.
The starting force(minimum) is two, so the minimum for the attributes is two.
Which is repeated here:

You seem to be making an assumption on the timing of when the minimums apply. That assumption (which may or may not be correct) is the point of contention. All other character types do not have to concern themselves with a minimum value in a stat only applying during the first steps of character creation. Without being explicitly stated the norm would be to follow all the standard generic rules. This would allow a character to buy up their Force stat, creating new, higher minimums.

So it is obvious.

The only things that are obvious is that the rule is written in an unclear fashion, there are 2 very different ways to interpret it, one method gives what appears to be an overpowered PC, one gives an underpowered PC.

I have no stake in which method is correct, our table doesn't allow them at all

[Irion]

@TommyTwoToes

No problems there, except that the rules are not clear, as evidenced by the ammount of debate that occurs on how they work.

On the first thought, this seems correct. But it is actually not.
The amount of discussion about a topic is quite independent of "how clear the rules are".
There are a lot of things which are not "clear" by the book. Still there is no discussion about it. Simply because all but one of the options would cripple the game or something like that.
As a matter of fact: Discussion occure if a certain aspect of the rules could be read (with a lot of stretch) to justify an enormous increase in power for certain concepts.

For example: The hole physical and mana spell stuff is not clear. Some pyhsical spells have to affect the astral and some physical powers have even to be used there. But discussion one occur only to certain distinct points.

You seem to be making an assumption on the timing of when the minimums apply. That assumption (which may or may not be correct) is the point of contention. All other character types do not have to concern themselves with a minimum value in a stat only applying during the first steps of character creation. Without being explicitly stated the norm would be to follow all the standard generic rules. This would allow a character to buy up their Force stat, creating new, higher minimums.

Well, you have to follow through. My assumption is not contradicted by the rest of the text. The other "assumption" is. So I guess it is obvious, which one is incorrect.
And since there remains just one possibly correct assumption (the one I made), this one would have to be considered the correct one.

[Sephiroth]

Well, you have to follow through. My assumption is not contradicted by the rest of the text. The other "assumption" is. So I guess it is obvious, which one is incorrect.
And since there remains just one possibly correct assumption (the one I made), this one would have to be considered the correct one.

While I am of the side of the debate that favors your interpretation, I would still like you to point out where the assumption of "increasing force increases remaining attributes automatically" is contradicted in the text.

[kzt]

You know, reading this conversation a few times has me wondering if the author for that section (I do not know who it was) was being purposefully wordy to meet their guidelines for their section in terms of word count.

It was Aaron per multiple sources. The guy who wrote the computer section of the main rules.

[Megu]

It was Aaron per multiple sources. The guy who wrote the computer section of the main rules.

That explains a lot right there...

[Irion]

Well there are several point all over the text.
First of all, the force beeing used as minimum is only stated in the beginning, right next to the starting Force. Later on (when the text is about the starting attributes again) it states, that your minimum is 2

Which is your force minimum

An other point is, that for possession spirits the attributes are added to the attributes of the vessel. Why not add the force, if they are equal?

If you take the hole context of the rules: It would have been stated specificly, because it would have been contradicting the rules for any other character. This is one of the rules which would have been stated multible times.

Then again the text later on only talks about using the (increased) force as maximum. The word minimum is never mentioned in paragraph again.

[Neraph]

Yes, but it is never refuted.

You see, if you need to raise your Force in order to raise your other attributes, and your Force determines your natural minimums, then there is no contention. You raise your Force and your attributes raise automatically. The mention of Maximums was put in there to determine Augmented Maximums.

Also, the part about adding your Attributes and not adding your Force was a forethought for allowing Exceptional Attribute to be used on one physical attribute - in this case, that particular attribute would not neccessarily be equal to the Free Spirit's Force.

[Mäx]

An other point is, that for possession spirits the attributes are added to the attributes of the vessel. Why not add the force, if they are equal?

Becouse their not always equal, minimum is the force, but augmented maximum is force*1,5 so some attributes might not be equal to force when the spirit is possesing a vessel.
Also as Exceptional Attribute is an allowed quality for free spirits PC, they might have that meaning one of their atributes is at force+1(could actually be +2 as surge isn't in the list of dissallowed qualitie, so could also get metagenetic improvment.)

[Mooncrow]

Becouse their not always equal, minimum is the force, but augmented maximum is force*1,5 so some attributes might not be equal to force when the spirit is possesing a vessel.
Also as Exceptional Attribute is an allowed quality for free spirits PC, they might have that meaning one of their atributes is at force+1(could actually be +2 as surge isn't in the list of dissallowed qualitie, so could also get metagenetic improvment.)

Heh, a changeling Free Spirit - hadn't thought of that one. Since I guess they technically are a Non-Metahuman Sapient, it would work with the GM's approval. Three cheers for vague wording^^

[Irion]

@Mäx
Well, as a matter of facts, spirits have no possibility to augment their attributes if astral.

Second the Exeptional attribute would be a waste of points.
You raise Force by one and all attributes are on the same level again. (I know you want to dispute that, but please read the text before you do so.)

[Neraph]

I just read the text three times and I'm not seeing what you apparently do. Please quote and underline the pertinent sections.

[TommyTwoToes]

I just read the text three times and I'm not seeing what you apparently do. Please quote and underline the pertinent sections.

He decided that the text is perfectly clear and that no debate is needed. Anyone who disagrees is wrong.

[DamienKnight]

Our group has a Free Spirit character. Lots of fun. We went with the option presented in the SR4CG DK, the weaker option (which follows RAW according to the Free Spirit Character creation guidelines).

He is playing a possession spirit. His stats are terrible... 2's on all physical attributes, and 3's on mental. But its sorta irrelevant, since he possesses tough people, and then boosts their stats with his own attributes. In fact, our group houseruled that possession spirits only raise their host's stats by 1/2 the spirits stat, since possession spirits are so high powered anyway.

It does require some care by the player. When he leaves a body (or is forced out of it) he is VERY vunerable on the astral. A force 4 or 5 conjured spirit could easily beat him in astral combat. He has to rely on astral spells like manabolt, and running away. He often hires other players or NPC mages to summon spirits to follow and aid him, just in case he ends up in the astral.

Instead of raising his physical attributes, he has been raising his Force/Edge and buying spirit powers. He just is always sure to either avoid combat, or enter it while possessing a powerful character or vehicle.

If we used the crazy powerful spirit rules, he would have started with 5 in all attributes, and probably focused on raising his force. He would quickly become much too powerful. A manifestation spirit with stats of 6 or higher is bad enough... but a possession spirit with high attributes... just ugly.

From our experience, the benefits of being a free spirit make it worth having weak starting attributes.

If you want to make them more powerful, follow the weak rules, but allow the free spirit to raise his attributes for just 3 karma x new level, rather than 5. The spirit will catch up fast enough, trust me.

[Irion]

@TommyTwoToes
Sometimes I get tired form repeating the obvious, I know it is strange.

@Neraph
Well, I said many diffrent things. Which of them do you not see?
Well of course they do not write "increasing the force does not increase your attibutes". There is also nowhere said, that trolls can't fly.
This discussion reminds me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_hlMK7tCks.
"He wrote minimum!!"

For the sake of peace I will explain it in detail.

Free spirits have a Force special attribute that starts with a rating
of 2.

Well I guess, this common ground. The Force starts with two.
So to speak Force(t)=2. For t=0.

This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums
and maximums for all attributes.

Well, I guess a lot of people got a huge problem with the word determines.
This does not mean equals! It just means that the attributes are somehow a function of the force.
This could, for example, be:
Attributes(Force)= ln(Force)

It also acts as the spirit’s Magic
attribute.

Well, so the spirit uses his force attribute as the magic attribute.

Force increases can be purchased at character generation
for the same price as any attribute. The natural maximum for the
Force attribute is 6, although this can be later increased through
initiation.

I guess, thats common ground again.

A free spirit’s Force rating is the natural maximum for
all Physical and Mental attributes, as well as its Edge attribute

Well and here comes the function for the maximums.
But the minimums could still be close to everything.

In addition, free spirits have the same Physical, Mental,
and Edge attributes as metahuman characters, which all start at
2 (their starting Force) at the start of character generation.

So the function for the minimus, finally.
They are all 2. The function is: Minimum(Force)= Force(0) = 2.

For
materialized spirits, the Physical attributes apply to its materialized
form. For spirits of possession traditions, the spirit’s Physical
attributes are added to the attributes of the vessel possessed by the
spirit. A spirit’s Initiative is its Intuition x 2 in astral space, and
its Reaction + Intuition when materialized or possessing a vessel;
it gets three Initiative Passes in astral space and two in physical
space each Combat Turn. A spirit’s Essence is equal to its Force. If
it ever loses Essence, it also loses Force, in the same manner that a
metahuman loses Magic with the loss of Essence, except that the
spirit’s Force maximum is unchanged.
All rules on in Shadowrun, Fourth Edition and Street Magic
regarding the abilities and limitations of Materializing and
Possession free spirits apply as normal.

Other stuff.

[Neraph]

So Irion believes that Free Spirit PC's should follow rules vastly different from any other spirit any book lists, in clear opposition to the Rules as presented in the books, especially the book in question. Gotcha.

And @ DamienKnight: How is a single possession spirit any more powerful than a possession tradition mage capable of summoning 6 possession spirits? And in fact, those possession spirits summoned have a lot more Powers than a Free Spirit PC, even following the "More Powerful" option.

[Mäx]

Second the Exeptional attribute would be a waste of points.
You raise Force by one and all attributes are on the same level again. (I know you want to dispute that, but please read the text before you do so.)

This doesn't make any sense what so ever.
Exceptional atributes raises the atributes maximum by 1, for free spirits that maximum(as is minimum) is their force, so with exceptional attribute(Charisma) his maximum for chararisma is force+1 and allways will be unless he gets metagenetic improvment(charisma) in witch case its force+2. Raising his force has absolutely no effect on what exeptional attribute does.

[Laodicea]

There is a 3rd option no one is talking about because its really unthinkable to have to build a character like that.

You raise your force to 3. You now have to spend BP or Karma raising every individual attribute to 3. You raise your force to 4. You now have to spend BP or Karma to raise every individual attribute to 4. No attribute can be left lower than Force, because Force is the "natural minimums and maximums" for free spirit attributes.

This is actually RAW. The other two options are not. Have fun with that.

[pbangarth]

In the desription of Free Spirit PCs on page 91 of Runner's Companion, it tells us that

When a free spirit is born, it is released from its previous fetters
and into the world. Sometimes it recalls its prior life, but, even
then, it rarely remembers more than cloudy images and emotions.
It starts its new life in the physical world as a sentient but somewhat
naive entity.

Does this mean that, unlike NPC Free Spirits, the PC Free Spirit has forgotten the Skills and Powers it had moments before it went Free? Because if it has not forgotten them, then the characterization of the Free Spirit PC as being underpowered (in interpretation B above) is not so compelling.

In fact, simply allowing the Free Spirit PC to keep the Skills and Powers it had, as a bound Fire Spirit, Guidance Spirit, whatever, would go a long way towards making that 250 BP initial cost seem sensible.

EDIT: The interpretation B I am talking about is the one Laodicea describes immediately above.

EDIT 2: Although the Fixated Quality

Fixated
Bonus: 5 BP
The spirit with this quality is obsessed with its original
form. The spirit may only purchase powers accessible by a single type
of spirit available to its tradition, chosen at character generation.
The spirit gains no other traits of the spirit type, including
movement rate and weaknesses.

would seem to suggest that the past pwers and skills do not carry through.

[Mäx]

There is a 3rd option no one is talking about because its really unthinkable to have to build a character like that.

You raise your force to 3. You now have to spend BP or Karma raising every individual attribute to 3. You raise your force to 4. You now have to spend BP or Karma to raise every individual attribute to 4. No attribute can be left lower than Force, because Force is the "natural minimums and maximums" for free spirit attributes.

This is actually RAW. The other two options are not. Have fun with that.

Huh, thats definedly not RAW, unless your saying that trolls have to pay 80 build points extra for their minimum 5 body and strenght.
Or even more relevantly that someone taking metagenetic improvment have to pay 10 build points for their new minimum atribute. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
Minimum is the slowest value the attribute can be and is free.

[Irion]

@Mäx
If you would use the option favored by Neraph, then every time you increase your force every attribute would be increased up to force.
Example:
Spirit with megamagic improvement Charisma (one point spent) and Force 4:
S B A R C I L W
4 4 4 4 5 4 4 4
Spirit is increasing its force to five:
S B A R C I L W
5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5

Actually I think Laodicea is right. The point is, there would be three different values:
1) Starting value of any attribut. (2 for spirits and 5 in case of body for trolls)
2) Minimum value for any attribute. (Force for spirits and for example 5 in case of body for trolls)
3) Maximum value: (Spirit Force, Body(Troll): 10)

@Laodicea
Neraph would have to agree with you (I do not, because I read the sentence in question in a different way). But he wont. Because it is not really about the text. (As I said, the text is actually quite easy to understand)
It is about making spirits better, because by some holy rule something exotic has to be extremely strong. I never understood this and I suppose I never will. It just seems to be in the head of a bunch of people.

@pbangarth

Does this mean that, unlike NPC Free Spirits, the PC Free Spirit has forgotten the Skills and Powers it had moments before it went Free? Because if it has not forgotten them, then the characterization of the Free Spirit PC as being underpowered (in interpretation B above) is not so compelling.

Yes. The point is to keep the creation simple and to prevent introducing a "class" system for one type of character, which would be overkill.
That is why PCFS use a quite different set of rules then any other spirit.

[Mäx]

1) Starting value of any attribut. (2 for spirits and 5 in case of body for trolls)
2) Minimum value for any attribute. (Force for spirits and for example 5 in case of body for trolls)

These 2 are essentially the same think, all your attributes start att their minimum value and are never lower then that, also stats at their minimum value never ever cost anythink.

And i dont see what point your trying to make with that attribute listing,becouse that doesn't exactly have anythink to do with what exceptional attribute does.
Exceptional attribute raises the attribute max,which also raises that stats augmented maximum, meaning you can boost that stat higher.
But i do admit that actually rasing that stat isn't smart use of ones karma, for that metagenetic improvment is a better shoice, as it actually raises the attributes minimum value too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Starmage21]

Our group has a Free Spirit character. Lots of fun. We went with the option presented in the SR4CG DK, the weaker option (which follows RAW according to the Free Spirit Character creation guidelines).

He is playing a possession spirit. His stats are terrible... 2's on all physical attributes, and 3's on mental. But its sorta irrelevant, since he possesses tough people, and then boosts their stats with his own attributes. In fact, our group houseruled that possession spirits only raise their host's stats by 1/2 the spirits stat, since possession spirits are so high powered anyway.

It does require some care by the player. When he leaves a body (or is forced out of it) he is VERY vunerable on the astral. A force 4 or 5 conjured spirit could easily beat him in astral combat. He has to rely on astral spells like manabolt, and running away. He often hires other players or NPC mages to summon spirits to follow and aid him, just in case he ends up in the astral.

Instead of raising his physical attributes, he has been raising his Force/Edge and buying spirit powers. He just is always sure to either avoid combat, or enter it while possessing a powerful character or vehicle.

If we used the crazy powerful spirit rules, he would have started with 5 in all attributes, and probably focused on raising his force. He would quickly become much too powerful. A manifestation spirit with stats of 6 or higher is bad enough... but a possession spirit with high attributes... just ugly.

From our experience, the benefits of being a free spirit make it worth having weak starting attributes.

If you want to make them more powerful, follow the weak rules, but allow the free spirit to raise his attributes for just 3 karma x new level, rather than 5. The spirit will catch up fast enough, trust me.

So what happens when you compare you're "awesome" free spirit PC in your game to a possession mage that can not only have an unbound spirit possess the tame tough Guy your PC would but then can cast spells himself or involve other, bound spirits? The difference is too freaking huge to say the weal option is playable at all. The strong option is barely making it to the comparison with the mage. THAT is the real crux of our arguments here.

I mean, anything is playable with a generous and judicious GM, but not all Gmail are fair, nor possibly experienced enough to deal with the.particulars. free spirits should be at LEAST on par with a spirit that any Joe mage can summon.

Sorry for text blocking. Posting from my phone. Proper formatting and.grammar is difficult at best.

[Irion]

@Starmage21
Lets start with the simple things.
Beeing able to travel close to the speed of light.
Beeing close to immortal.
No need for food.
No need for shelter.
(And may be no need for sleep, I dont know)

free spirits should be at LEAST on par with a spirit that any Joe mage can summon.

May be the crux is, that this spirits are just too strong?

Sorry, but just build such a spirit for the sake of the argument.
Lets just keep it simple:
Force 6->attributes 6->edge 6.
For the rest of the Points we are getting some Connections, skills and 10 spells.
We do not take fancy stuff, just concealment, guard etc.
Concealment alone is close to game breaking. The spirit is not risking up 12 boxes of damage for the ability to conceal about 2-3 Person. He is able to hide up to 6 Persons (if I am not mistaken) just by announcing.

Mages are just able to get some of the spirits powers. The spirit has his own powers available at any time. This is a huge differance.

[Starmage21]

@Starmage21
Lets start with the simple things.
Beeing able to travel close to the speed of light.
Beeing close to immortal.
No need for food.
No need for shelter.
(And may be no need for sleep, I dont know)


May be the crux is, that this spirits are just too strong?

Sorry, but just build such a spirit for the sake of the argument.
Lets just keep it simple:
Force 6->attributes 6->edge 6.
For the rest of the Points we are getting some Connections, skills and 10 spells.
We do not take fancy stuff, just concealment, guard etc.
Concealment alone is close to game breaking. The spirit is not risking up 12 boxes of damage for the ability to conceal about 2-3 Person. He is able to hide up to 6 Persons (if I am not mistaken) just by announcing.

Mages are just able to get some of the spirits powers. The spirit has his own powers available at any time. This is a huge differance.

Just regarding that last line: are you serious? LOL

In truth it maybe because I'm used to a more gamist perspective , but I've not seriously seen a 4th edition mage yet who doesn't have every spirit power he needs or wants at any given time thanks to unbound spirits. This is especially true of posession mages. Hell thereve been a few who'd bind several spirits to get different powers like movement and concealment and guard.

Moreover, there are a couple spirits who will have all 3 of the big powers at force 6. Well within the abilities of a 400 bp starter mage to conjure nearly willy nilly

[Neraph]

@Laodicea
Neraph would have to agree with you (I do not, because I read the sentence in question in a different way). But he wont. Because it is not really about the text. (As I said, the text is actually quite easy to understand)
It is about making spirits better, because by some holy rule something exotic has to be extremely strong. I never understood this and I suppose I never will. It just seems to be in the head of a bunch of people.

Actually, I would have to agree with him if he ever quoted and emphasised anything that was pertinent. He is intentionally twisting "minimums" into some wierd ruling that is not found in any book anywhere, and as such, has invalidated his own statement.