[X] My Assistant

[Irion]

@Starmage21
And any force 6 spirit you call has a chance of rolling up to 12 dices (and rerolling the 6s) for two boxes of damage per hit.
Lets do the math, thats about 8-9 boxes of damage.

Hell thereve been a few who'd bind several spirits to get different powers like movement and concealment and guard.

Well, because binding spirits is such an easy thing to do. here you go with force*2 dices to begin with. Adding another force dices on top of that.
Even if you just stick with an force 5 spirit you would still need to pay the binding materials. And even if you get about 14 dices to bind, there is a good chance, that you will fail the test. So you take damage and money loss for nothing.

And there are still other, sirious limitations.
Like wards. Spirits are able to stay astral for as long as they like. So there is no reason for them not to "press" through the soil to bypass wards. As a matter of fact, they could just fly through the ward, hide inside a Wall, the soil or anywhere, untill the security is back to normal. If they got the Aura masking, the multible Form, Concealment and the realistic Form power they could go on with their mission as some small insect. (With ITNW)

[Starmage21]

@Starmage21
And any force 6 spirit you call has a chance of rolling up to 12 dices (and rerolling the 6s) for two boxes of damage per hit.
Lets do the math, thats about 8-9 boxes of damage.


Well, because binding spirits is such an easy thing to do. here you go with force*2 dices to begin with. Adding another force dices on top of that.
Even if you just stick with an force 5 spirit you would still need to pay the binding materials. And even if you get about 14 dices to bind, there is a good chance, that you will fail the test. So you take damage and money loss for nothing.

And there are still other, sirious limitations.
Like wards. Spirits are able to stay astral for as long as they like. So there is no reason for them not to "press" through the soil to bypass wards. As a matter of fact, they could just fly through the ward, hide inside a Wall, the soil or anywhere, untill the security is back to normal. If they got the Aura masking, the multible Form, Concealment and the realistic Form power they could go on with their mission as some small insect. (With ITNW)

a spirit using edge to resist being summoned or bound is GM's call. So on what grounds would you say that a spirit in your game would use edge to resist a summoning/binding? For me, there'd have to be something akin to spirit bane, or being called into a heavy background count, or similar grievous situation. To me, the precedent is that spirits either dont mind being summoned all that much, or theyre just used to it, since just about every mage that appears in missions has a bound spirit or two, and an unbound as well.

Also, you can't go through the dirt, Gaia is a dual-natured being. But I DO get the jist of what youre saying. If there's a ward, just go under/over it. I'm pretty sure when you ward areas, it doesnt just form a wall, but protects the area. It sound's really cheesey to be able to just "go under it" like it's a wall. If this is NOT the case, than any self-respecting wage-mage should ward the floors and ceilings of an area thats designated for such protections as a matter of practicality.

Mage's themselves have mutable forms too. There's the physical mask spell, and shapechange; both of which are unnoticable without assensing or a ward in the way.

Lastly, binding materials are cheap. You can afford them easily even with the crappy payouts that come from the Shadowrun Missions that've been officially published. Mages dont have many other uses for money anyway.

[sabs]

There should be an Astral Notoriety rating for Summoners.
Based on how they treat the spirits based on their tradition.
A Coyote Shaman who summons spirits and treats them like slaves, mistreats them, doesn't go with the niceties will start getting Notoriety. Maybe you roll the notoriety, if you get a hit, then the spirit uses edge resisting the summoning roll.
Hermetics in my mind, should always be summoning spirits that roll edge. They don't treat most spirits as sentient beings, but instead treat them as workhorses. And, that puts some flavor back into the differences between traditions.
Maybe a Voodoo Spirit rolls edge if you didn't make the right offerings, or if you're summoning it into an unprepared vessel.

Traditions should mean more than, which uber spirits did I get, and did I point optimize my Drain Stat properly.

[Sephiroth]

Also, you can't go through the dirt, Gaia is a dual-natured being.

Yes you can, albeit slowly. I think Street Magic likens it to walking through molasses, or something like that.

[Irion]

a spirit using edge to resist being summoned or bound is GM's call. So on what grounds would you say that a spirit in your game would use edge to resist a summoning/binding? For me, there'd have to be something akin to spirit bane, or being called into a heavy background count, or similar grievous situation.

Well, the only payment the spirit recieves is the drain of the mage, as far as I know. As a matter of fact, a PC would use edge on this roll. Why shouldn't a NPC not

[Starmage21]

Yes you can, albeit slowly. I think Street Magic likens it to walking through molasses, or something like that.

Got a page for this? I really didnt know this. I wonder if it was incorporated into SR4a, because my corebook states that "gaia is a dual-natured being" spiel and you cant pass through her to get where youre going.

[sabs]

I always think of wards as not a wall, but a volume protection.

Everything 'inside' the ward is protected, no matter how you get 'to' the ward.

[Starmage21]

Well, the only payment the spirit recieves is the drain of the mage, as far as I know. As a matter of fact, a PC would use edge on this roll. Why shouldn't a NPC not

There really isnt a rebuttal for this, as it's fairly correct. If your PC regularly blows edge on spirit binding, by all means blow spirit edge to resist. Hell, why not just have the spirit burn an edge point in a big "fuck you!" to the player? Cause that's really all this sounds like.

Summoning and/or binding a spirit does not necessarily constitute abuse, even if a PC spends edge on it. Hell, depending on tradition, you could argue that the spent edge and accompanying extra services represents the willingness to serve on part of the spirit thanks to the sacrifice of a bit of luck on part of the player's character.

in addition: regardless of how the spirits arrive, the original argument remains unchanged. Summoned spirits, bound or unbound, can do everything a free spirit PC can, and more, including the pseudo-teleport mentioned above as a major strength of a free-spirit PC. Thus making free-spirit PCs broken on the gimped side.

[pbangarth]

Got a page for this? I really didnt know this. I wonder if it was incorporated into SR4a, because my corebook states that "gaia is a dual-natured being" spiel and you cant pass through her to get where youre going.

Street Magic, pages 114-5.

[pbangarth]

in addition: regardless of how the spirits arrive, the original argument remains unchanged. Summoned spirits, bound or unbound, can do everything a free spirit PC can, and more, including the pseudo-teleport mentioned above as a major strength of a free-spirit PC. Thus making free-spirit PCs broken on the gimped side.

The counter to this argument also remains unchanged. The Free Spirit PC has unlimited usages of its Powers, without having to Summon/Bind a spirit with the attendant Drain and financial costs.

Following along this thread, my opinion has vascillated regarding the usefulness of this PC archetype. It is beginning to settle somewhere in the middle between the extremes presented here. Yes, the Free Spirit PC starts with relatively low Attributes, and perhaps few Skills. Yet, for half a Power point, the Free Spirit PC and his teammates never glitch. For another half Power point, the Free Spirit's opponents have to continually deal with Accident. For one Power point, the Free Spirit PC and his team are forever fast. For (an admittedly hefty) two Power Points, the Free Spirit and his team are forever Concealed. These continual effects are not trivial.

[Mäx]

These continual effects are not trivial.

But you dont need any of those effects active all the time and when you do need them summoned spirits provide them just fine.
The fact is that it always better to just build a summoner instead of a free spirit, if playing by Irions rules.

[pbangarth]

In regards to the discussion about the Effect of Force on the Attributes of a Free Spirit PC, it is instructive to look at this section of the Friendship Pact sidebar on page 93 of Runner's Companion:

This pact does exact a toll on the spirit. Every time a
pact member dies, the spirit’s Force rating is reduced by
one. Its natural maximum attributes are also reduced,
which may cause the reduction of one or more attribute
ratings

The implication here is that the Attributes do not automatically rise with Force.

[sabs]

Not to mention how hard it is going to be for the face to get some action if he's forever fighting a -6 concealment (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[pbangarth]

Well, the Concealment only works against a Perception Test to locate the subject. If no Perception Test is required, it isn't a problem. And Concealment can be turned of and on again.

An interesting Quality that isn't, but perhaps should be, denied in the banned list of Qualities for Free Spirit PCs is Gremlins. With the 0.5 point Power Guard, Gremlins is a free 20 BP.

[Irion]

There really isnt a rebuttal for this, as it's fairly correct. If your PC regularly blows edge on spirit binding, by all means blow spirit edge to resist. Hell, why not just have the spirit burn an edge point in a big "fuck you!" to the player? Cause that's really all this sounds like.

Well, no. First of all: Burning edge for other things then survival should be outlawed in the first place.

Summoning and/or binding a spirit does not necessarily constitute abuse, even if a PC spends edge on it. Hell, depending on tradition, you could argue that the spent edge and accompanying extra services represents the willingness to serve on part of the spirit thanks to the sacrifice of a bit of luck on part of the player's character.

Well, I guess wanting as much payment as possible is also not unreasonable.

in addition: regardless of how the spirits arrive, the original argument remains unchanged. Summoned spirits, bound or unbound, can do everything a free spirit PC can, and more, including the pseudo-teleport mentioned above as a major strength of a free-spirit PC. Thus making free-spirit PCs broken on the gimped side.

You still have to bind them. You still have to call them. And teleportation is quite useless, if the one who is in command can't follow.
Spirits do not need cloth or any equipment as long as they have the multible form power.
Shapechange might also be a good idea.

@Mäx
I guess the what rules are offical thing is over. There is just no basis for your assumption.
And I guess you know that.

The fact is that it always better to just build a summoner instead of a free spirit

An other point of view I do not share.
I would announce, that I am able to build a free spirit, (400BP + 200 Karma) which is able to stand against a mage.

[pbangarth]

I would announce, that I am able to build a free spirit, (400BP + 200 Karma) which is able to stand against a mage.

I think many here (I don't necessarily count myself among their number) would argue that it is a stretch to say the Free Spirit PC would survive long enough to get 200 Karma.

Though... with the right Spirit Pact(s)....

[sabs]

A 200 Karma mage? How much money did he get extra with that 200 Karma.

If you look at Mission Rewards, to get 200 Karma which is roughly 45 missions. You would easily have received 5k per mission. That's 200,000 nuyen pretty easily. Even if I say 1/2 of it was spent on 'lifestyle and other costs.' That's still another 100K.

A 400bp mage, with 200 karma and 100,000 for foci, enchanted items and bound spirits? He's going to be able to Summon a Spirit as good as your 400bp+200 Karma free spirit.

[Mooncrow]

I would announce, that I am able to build a free spirit, (400BP + 200 Karma) which is able to stand against a mage.

What team function does he perform better than a standard mage?

[kzt]

Infiltration. It's hard for a mage to get materialization.

[Irion]

I guess Face would work best.

[Mooncrow]

Infiltration. It's hard for a mage to get materialization.

As opposed to a mage going astral and having spirits who can materialize for him?

[Irion]

@Mooncrow
Like this he will be burning through services like nothing.

[kzt]

As opposed to a mage going astral and having spirits who can materialize for him?

"Ok, so fire spirit, I want you to materialize in the vault and search through the file cabinet for the report on project Golf Ravine."
"What's a report?"

[Mooncrow]

@Mooncrow
Like this he will be burning through services like nothing.

/shrug My mage never has fewer than 5 spirits bound, averaging 5-6 services each. And for most infiltration tasks, a force 1 spirit summoned on the fly works just fine.

Hmm, I wonder how they would do as a silent guard killer, though. I'll have to stat that out.

[Mooncrow]

"Ok, so fire spirit, I want you to materialize in the vault and search through the file cabinet for the report on project Golf Ravine."
"What's a report?"

Good thing you can call up another type of spirit with Search instead^^

edit: I do agree that some type of infiltration/assassin type of role is going to be a free spirit's best shot at relevance on a team - I just don't know if the glaring weaknesses are enough to make up for the handful of tricks they can do.