How Balanced is shadowrun anyways?, Just a random pondering Options

[GM Lich]

This is sorta of an interesting question for you all who have probaly played shadowrun for a lot longer then I have. As heavily discussed in certain other games, a lot of RPG developers have a tendency to attempt balance things along with give players access to shiny new powers and toys a concept I believe to be known as "Power Creep." This is a rather universal thing with any RPG with splat books/supplements. N. How balanced is shadowrun overall? I know its far from perfect, but I am curious on what the dumpshockers thought on balance overall in shadowrun with most of the players splat books.

[Summerstorm]

Hm hm... well it is VERY apparent from my postings here that i am not really agreeing with magic (especially summoning spirits) and technomancer rules (again the sprites).

BUT i don't want my games completely balanced. I am pretty much a fan of overpowered magics... but for a price. I like diversity in the characters and the world... in style, capabilities and power levels. (I liked the hermetics/shamanistic/yay voodoo- split of the earlier editions, for example)

Overall SR4 is good enough in balancing it out, even though i regard variable TNs superior. (Prevents those weird effect of extremely high/low dicepools and some rules (extended tests for example).

[LurkerOutThere]

SR has always favored magic, with the loss of things that could actually hurt your magic rating and the still apparent social prejudices against cyberware (50 years after it's introduction no less) SR4 is edging dangerously close to Magicrun territory.

[Neurosis]

I think that Shadowrun is pretty balanced.

Edit: Man, this post is really bland and milqtoast. I must be tired or something.

[GM Lich]

SR has always favored magic, with the loss of things that could actually hurt your magic rating and the still apparent social prejudices against cyberware (50 years after it's introduction no less) SR4 is edging dangerously close to Magicrun territory.

This has been my general impression of shadowrun. While the street samurai is awesome and such we then get someone who can basically who can bend reality and summon minons to do their bidding. I do like magic it just feels better overall.

[Yerameyahu]

I mean, how do you even answer that question? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's not class-based like D&D 3.5, so there aren't 'Tier 1' classes that are categorically superior in every situation. Various Magic/Resonance users approach that kind of distinction, and there are certainly opportunities for powergaming. On the other hand, many different character types are viable, and there isn't really anyone who can lone-wolf everything. There's easily room in a runner team for 3-6 characters, for example.

The introductions of Augmentation, Arsenal, Unwired, Street Magic, etc. each altered the balance a bit (Guardian Spirits, Emotitoys, Program Options), but that just means that the whole NPC world changed along with the PCs. Players using only the Core book can indeed be outclassed by 'splatbook-powered' characters, but I feel like that's more a situation of 'everyone isn't playing the same game'.

That said, there's some lean toward Awakened character (as everyone will mention); this is usually more of a problem after lots of Karma has been earned, than at chargen. Cyber is still pretty effective, especially early.

[Neurosis]

This has been my general impression of shadowrun. While the street samurai is awesome and such we then get someone who can basically who can bend reality and summon minons to do their bidding. I do like magic it just feels better overall.

But however awesome the mage is, the street samurai can still KILL THE MAGE. In the FACE. KILL HIM IN THE FACE. Usually in a way that his magic can do very little or nothing about.

I think one reason that Shadowrun is fairly balanced is that everyone is, in a grand sense, a glass cannon. No matter how much of a badass you are, there is something that can kill you. At least at the PC level. If you are some kind of uber-initiate archmage, it doesn't mean that a single shot from a high-powered sniper rifle when you're not expecting it can't drop you. If you are an ultrachrome death ninja with nines in all physical attributes, a control thoughts spell can still potentially make you a meat puppet. And no matter who you are, you have to worry about things like someone hacking the elevator you're in and sending it into free-fall on the ninetieth floor.

In short, in Shadowrun, deadliness/vulnerability is balance.

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[Yerameyahu]

:/ The face is the worst place to be killed, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) Alas.

Incidentally, mages/etc. are supposedly balanced by magic terrors of all kinds that the sam doesn't have to think about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's the mage's job.

[Mayhem_2006]

It's as balanced as the GM chooses to make it.

[LurkerOutThere]

But however awesome the mage is, the street samurai can still KILL THE MAGE. In the FACE. KILL HIM IN THE FACE. Usually in a way that his magic can do very little or nothing about.

I think one reason that Shadowrun is fairly balanced is that everyone is, in a grand sense, a glass cannon. No matter how much of a badass you are, there is something that can kill you. At least at the PC level. If you are some kind of uber-initiate archmage, it doesn't mean that a single shot from a high-powered sniper rifle when you're not expecting it can't drop you. If you are an ultrachrome death ninja with nines in all physical attributes, a control thoughts spell can still potentially make you a meat puppet. And no matter who you are, you have to worry about things like someone hacking the elevator you're in and sending it into free-fall on the ninetieth floor.

In short, in Shadowrun, deadliness/vulnerability is balance.

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

It is wrong, but that's ok it's an opinion. There is nothing a street sam can do that a mage cannot do, and better in some cases. A mage can use a sniper rifle a mage can use boosted reflexes, a mage can use high force armor armor and boosting spells that make him immune to most anything. He can summon spirits with comparable abilities and IPs to the sam as disposable unthinking death machines. Saying that there are potential counters to something doesn't make that thing not broken as all hell.

[phlapjack77]

But however awesome the mage is, the street samurai can still KILL THE MAGE. In the FACE. KILL HIM IN THE FACE. Usually in a way that his magic can do very little or nothing about.

I think one reason that Shadowrun is fairly balanced is that everyone is, in a grand sense, a glass cannon. No matter how much of a badass you are, there is something that can kill you. At least at the PC level. If you are some kind of uber-initiate archmage, it doesn't mean that a single shot from a high-powered sniper rifle when you're not expecting it can't drop you. If you are an ultrachrome death ninja with nines in all physical attributes, a control thoughts spell can still potentially make you a meat puppet. And no matter who you are, you have to worry about things like someone hacking the elevator you're in and sending it into free-fall on the ninetieth floor.

In short, in Shadowrun, deadliness/vulnerability is balance.

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Much better post - not all bland and milqtoast-y (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) For what it's worth, I agree with you - the balance of the game really lies in the players and the GM, and what situations arise.

:/ The face is the worst place to be killed, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) Alas.

Incidentally, mages/etc. are supposedly balanced by magic terrors of all kinds that the sam doesn't have to think about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's the mage's job.

As a guy, I immediately had the thought that there would be at least one worse place to be killed. Maybe, maybe not? Let's hope we never find out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It is wrong, but that's ok it's an opinion. There is nothing a street sam can do that a mage cannot do, and better in some cases. A mage can use a sniper rifle a mage can use boosted reflexes, a mage can use high force armor armor and boosting spells that make him immune to most anything. He can summon spirits with comparable abilities and IPs to the sam as disposable unthinking death machines. Saying that there are potential counters to something doesn't make that thing not broken as all hell.

I don't think this tells the whole story. But that's just my opinion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

To reiterate, I think SR is as balanced as the players and GM want to make it. A videogame (like Diablo?) might not be balanced between classes, there might be optimum builds and such, but those games have built-in limits on what can happen. RPGs are way more open to possibilities.

[Ascalaphus]

Shadowrun isn't terribly balanced, but not ragingly imbalanced either, I think. Awakened characters have a lot of long-term potential, but I don't think that's a problem. It'll take so long for that to become an untenable power difference, by that time you should be ruling the world as a team anyway.

What's important is that there are enough niches for everyone in a team to contribute something and be the best at something important. This then allows everyone moments in the spotlight, which is important to having fun.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Actually while Mages are ridiculously powerful in combat, and vs. mundanes in general, there are SO many things that can ruin a mage's day on any given run (except against a joe average minicorp) that I don't think mages have an edge as runners - granted, this gets worse as initiations come rolling in.

Beginner mages do have a stealth problem IMHO. A mundane can always sneak past pretty much anything, but in Astral space the mage just sticks out like a sore thumb.

And comparing mages to Sams isn't fair, anyway, because when you look at it, Sammies are the most useless characters in the game. They only shine when shit goes wrong. (YMMV as usually (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

[Glyph]

Shadowrun is balanced in that there is no ONE way to create a powerful character - there are many different ways to be effective. And it is also balanced in that characters will have both vulnerabilities, and areas that they can improve. Furthermore, while there was some power creep in the supplements, you can still create a character using nothing but the core book, who can still hang with characters made using the new options.

However, it takes some effort from the GM to keep the game relatively balanced. Character creation can result in characters with widely different power levels, so further guidance from the GM is needed if you don't want the street punk from the Barrens being overshadowed by the buffed-up street samurai.

[suoq]

It's incredibly unbalanced, but that doesn't really matter.

For example: Dice Pool progression.
Adding dice to your dice pool is neither linear or quadratic. It's random.
To add to a social die pool, you can pick up Empathy software available at +3 for 600Y and will work on most commlinks.
Or you can pick up Tailored Pheremones, avaialble at +3 for 45,000Y and .6 essence.

Or, moreso Dice Pool Purpose.
If, you have a unimportant side job, such as being the mechanic who installs mods, dice pool progression is much worse.
You can attempt to add to your logic with Encephelon +1 @ 30000Y and/or PuSHeD. Or you can replace (as opposed to supplement the way empathy software does) your skills with skillwires and skillsofts at a price that makes Empathy software look like it's free.

Or, even crazier, pirate software.
You can buy software if your have the core rulebook or you can buy the same software, post character creation, for 1/10 the price if you have unwired. Dont get unwired if you've already bought legal software because that legal software actively becomes worse than the pirated software that costs 1/10 the price.

Even the cost of meta-human variants makes little sense. Being an Orc instead of a human gets you 30 points of Body (which you'll need just to wear armor) for 20 points and 10 points of edge. However that comes with low light vision and 20 points of strength as well AND those 20 points don't count towards your 200 point attribute limit.

So it's an unbalanced system. Why doesn't that matter?

1) Because the characters all have their personal niches.
Sure, the face can hit the dice cap in his sleep, but since no one is rolling their social pool against the rigger's mechanics pool, no one cares that their dice pools aren't balanced to each other.

2) Because it's an unbalanced world. What's good for your players is good for everyone else as well. Sure, technomancers are off the hook over time. But the players don't have exclusive access to technomancers. Anything the players can exploit the world can exploit.

From a statistical game balance cost effectiveness perspective, Shadowrun fails at math. Prices are, for all intents and purposes, random. Where it gets its balance is the GM adjusting the thresholds to match the dice pools. The world matches the characters abilities and that's good enough.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

It's incredibly unbalanced, but that doesn't really matter.
...

QFT, pretty good summary. Balance is overrated, anyway. Team balance is what matters, or else group fun will go down the drain, but other than that? Who cares.

[Toloran]

In truth, no RPG is "balanced" in the way the OP thinks. None of them. Think of RPGs as pottery. Some pottery you can hit lightly with a hammer, and they're fine and others will break. Some you have to hit quite hard with a hammer before they'll break. However, they'll all break if you hit them hard enough.

Besides, real life isn't balanced so why should a "realistic" RPG be any different?

PS. I always put quotes around "realistic" when talking about RPGs since it means something slightly different in that context.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, the OP specifically mentioned splatbooks, so I tried to address that. In any case, this ain't RIFTS. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Anyone can basically maintain parity by buying the new BF pistol from Arsenal or the new UWB, or whatever the new 'super' item is.

[Mesh]

The game system, balance, and power creep are not a big concern for me in Shadowrun. What attracted me to the game and keeps me hooked is the setting. I love it enough to enjoy the game and overlook its quirks (which every system has). What an awesome setting!

Mesh

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Even the cost of meta-human variants makes little sense. Being an Orc instead of a human gets you 30 points of Body (which you'll need just to wear armor) for 20 points and 10 points of edge. However that comes with low light vision and 20 points of strength as well AND those 20 points don't count towards your 200 point attribute limit.

You are forgeting the fact that Orks and Trolls ave reduced limits on some attributes, like Logic, Intuition and Charisma. Also, humans are the most common meta-species you are gonna meet and the less "targetable of being prejudiced", of course, this last one doesn't really have a BP associated and it is all dependant on your GM.

[Cheops]

Splatbooks: the game is balanced. Characters made with just the main book are every bit as effective as those made with splats.

Character Creation: everyone starts at pretty much the same power level except for Joe Unagumented/Magical/Resonance.

Killing stuff: things are balanced because everyone is a glass cannon with 8-15 hit points that dies in 2 shots.

Magic: completely unbalanced. There are more mundane countermeasures to the Sam than there are countermeasures to Mages.

Magic Threats: kill sams just as dead if the mage isn't around. Unbalanced.

Advancement: Hacker, Rigger, and Sam start at (very close to) max power and grow horizontally. TMs and Mages can grow vertically and horizontally. In high karma games the rift can get very large.

What's this mean? Hard for GMs to balance encounters and challenges for the team which is where the rules really break down for me. It doesn't matter if the characters are balanced with each other as far as the players go. It is a big issue for GMs however. The solution is the "everybody is a decker" problem where the game is compartmentalized for each set of balanced characters. I feel that this has gotten worse in the latest edition than in previous editions. YMMV.

[tete]

SR has always favored magic

/This

1e turn to goo
2e spell locks
3e casting dice karma costs
4e edge cost

[edit]
In the past (1e/2e) Mages tended to start out weaker because of the priority buy but got more bang for the karma. Around 3e this shifted to being on par with everyone else while still getting more bang for the karma and holds true in 4e. So at the start of your game its not going to be a big deal but if you have a few hundred karma on there you may find the Magician doesn't need the rest of the team so much. I still don't think its a problem if your using priority builds, point builds tend to encourage min/maxing though so it could be an issue there. I think perfect balance is overrated, its about fun! and having a role to fill that your better at than the other PCs.

[suoq]

You are forgeting the fact that Orks and Trolls ave reduced limits on some attributes, like Logic, Intuition and Charisma.

Choosing to not overcomplicate an already complicated enough response is not forgetting something.

Metahumans have reductions. They have increases. The math doesn't work out, nor does it make sense that there's a limit on positive and negative qualities that the meta-races basically avoid by getting their attribute limits done under race.

Also, humans are the most common meta-species you are gonna meet

Everywhere or just in some specific settings?

If you think the metahuman races are balanced on point cost, show me the math, especially the part where buying attributes and qualities outside the 200 and 35 point limits is part of game balance.

[Doc Chase]

/This

1e turn to goo
2e spell locks
3e casting dice karma costs
4e edge cost

[edit]
In the past (1e/2e) Mages tended to start out weaker because of the priority buy but got more bang for the karma. Around 3e this shifted to being on par with everyone else while still getting more bang for the karma and holds true in 4e. So at the start of your game its not going to be a big deal but if you have a few hundred karma on there you may find the Magician doesn't need the rest of the team so much. I still don't think its a problem if your using priority builds, point builds tend to encourage min/maxing though so it could be an issue there. I think perfect balance is overrated, its about fun! and having a role to fill that your better at than the other PCs.

It's interesting to read the fluff in 4A, when all the magicians are trotting around on their own with no problem - unless they're the 300-point builds that DangerSensei was training for the reality show.

[sabs]

Choosing to not overcomplicate an already complicated enough response is not forgetting something.

Metahumans have reductions. They have increases. The math doesn't work out, nor does it make sense that there's a limit on positive and negative qualities that the meta-races basically avoid by getting their attribute limits done under race.

Everywhere or just in some specific settings?

If you think the metahuman races are balanced on point cost, show me the math, especially the part where buying attributes and qualities outside the 200 and 35 point limits is part of game balance.

Well and are you doing BP or Karma gen and which Karma gen are you doing

Dwarf: 25Bp or 0 Karma, or 25 Karma or 50 Karma depending on which rules you use.
40BP worth of stat increases.
45 Karma worth of stat increases

Elves: 30 BP cost
30 BP of Stat increases
35 Karma of Stat increases

Trolls: 40BP cost
80 BP of stat increases
140 Karma of stat increases

And that's not including the other parts of the races.