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> Spirits and binding
Pogo Pete
post Sep 19 2010, 03:24 PM
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I have a few rather basic questions about spirits.

Do spirits have two damage tracks or just one?

With the exception of spirits of beast (low light) and man (low light & thermo) do manifested spirits have the same vision range as humans and therefore suffer the same vis mods?

Do spirits use edge and who determines when, player or GM?

Does the one unbound spirit that you are allowed always have to be the last spirit summoned? Meaning: if you already have an unbound spirit and summon a new one which then takes a couple of hours to bind aren't you technically over the limit?
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Neraph
post Sep 19 2010, 03:36 PM
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1) Depends on how quickly you want combat to go. Everything in the game that has a Body and Willpower attribute (except for AIs) has Physical and Mental damage tracks. You can, for the sake of expediancy, use the highest Damage Track and track both physical and stun damage on it (I think that's listed in the Grunts section).

2) With no evidence to the contrary, yes. Except they can't look at TV screens and the like.

3) Yes - the GM.

4) I think you're right there. You have to have a spirit unbound before you can bind it, so you wouldn't be able to summon one unbound spirit and then summon a second one with the intent to summon Unbound #2.
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Pogo Pete
post Sep 19 2010, 04:59 PM
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Thank you! I sometimes feel one has to become a permanent fixture on these boards to understand this game we're playing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

What happens if a binding test fails (but not with a critical glitch)? Do you get to try again? Does it affect the number of services owed?
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Summerstorm
post Sep 19 2010, 04:59 PM
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Let me add to this:

While i agree that spirits have "common sense, hehe" normal vision, they also have astral sight as a dual creature... which is normaly superior to normal vision, except in some instances.

With the edge: Yeah, i guess i can safely say that summoned spirits nearly never use it though (GM descretion though) except to: Resist summoning and binding to an unsuitable summoner OR saving a summoner they particulary like. Getting called to our plane and do dirty jobs for some guy are more like a temp job for them... they don't put that much effort in it *g*. And I think we all agree that you only use edge when it is important for YOUR goals and yours only.

EDIT:
For your follow up questions:
If a binding fails: You lose the money you invested for the ritual... also the time you invested... and it costs one service (when i remember right) to have tried it. Other than that: No.
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Mooncrow
post Sep 19 2010, 05:05 PM
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QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Sep 19 2010, 12:59 PM) *
EDIT:
For your follow up questions:
If a binding fails: You lose the money you invested for the ritual... also the time you invested... and it costs one service (when i remember right) to have tried it. Other than that: No.


I'm away from my books right now, but I don't remember it costing a service for a failure. Everything else is correct though.
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Summerstorm
post Sep 19 2010, 05:09 PM
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Ah yes, just read over it again. You are right. No loss of services.
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Dreadlord
post Sep 19 2010, 11:03 PM
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Nitpicking here, but spirits can NEVER Manifest, they Materialize (or Possess).

Still trying to train my players(and myself!) on that one. Don't know why they changed the name between 4th editions and previous, and when they did, why they couldn't come up with two words that didn't begin with the same damn letter...
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Neraph
post Sep 20 2010, 05:17 AM
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Nitpicking here, but spirits can Manifest.

QUOTE (SR4 Manifesting, page 184)
If a purely astral form such as a spirit or an astrally projecting magician wishes to interact with the physical plane, she must manifest.

Emphasis mine. It's sad, I have that in a wordpad ready to go.

EDIT: It was in the very first sentence for Manifesting.
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Dumori
post Sep 20 2010, 05:34 AM
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They can also do there "what ever". The real question is dose manifesting have any advantages over materializing bar I think action length.
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Dahrken
post Sep 20 2010, 05:46 AM
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They can manifest, but can't do much more in that state. They can be seen and heard even by mundane characters, but that's all they extra they get compared to staying purely astral.

This can be useful for a diversion, or to attract fire and locate hidden opponents without taking any damage because the manifesting spirit has no physical presence and cannot be harmed no matter how many bullets and explosives are thrown at it - only Mana spells or Dispelling would affect it.
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darthmord
post Sep 20 2010, 01:11 PM
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QUOTE (Dahrken @ Sep 20 2010, 12:46 AM) *
They can manifest, but can't do much more in that state. They can be seen and heard even by mundane characters, but that's all they extra they get compared to staying purely astral.

This can be useful for a diversion, or to attract fire and locate hidden opponents without taking any damage because the manifesting spirit has no physical presence and cannot be harmed no matter how many bullets and explosives are thrown at it - only Mana spells or Dispelling would affect it.


Actually, unless the caster was on the same plane as the spirit, spells are ineffective... unless you rule that Manifesting spirits are vulnerable to spells cast at the their Manifest form despite them not being able to affect you.

Banishing is what you were likely describing, not Dispelling (that's used against spells, not spirits).
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Dahrken
post Sep 20 2010, 02:14 PM
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AFB at the moment, sorry. Yes, I confused dispelling and Banishing.

As for spell vulnerability, since a large majority of the persons or critters able to produce Mana spell or spell-like effects are either dual-natured or able to astrally perceive and thus to ctarget astral beings (like a manifesting spirit) I didn't think it would be necessary to elaborate.

The only one not able to target the spirit I can think would be a Mystic Adept without astral perception.
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Neraph
post Sep 21 2010, 04:37 AM
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QUOTE (Dahrken @ Sep 20 2010, 08:14 AM) *
As for spell vulnerability, since a large majority of the persons or critters able to produce Mana spell or spell-like effects are either dual-natured or able to astrally perceive and thus to ctarget astral beings (like a manifesting spirit) I didn't think it would be necessary to elaborate.

Since the core SR4 book has errata that completely rewrote the Manifest section of the rules, I think it would be prudent to elaborate whenever possible, if for no other reason than to make certain there is no confusion on your intent.
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