Elemental Strike + Electricity, Physical or Stun? Options

[Gamer6432]

As Elemental Strike requires Killing Hands (which makes unarmed attacks do Physical instead of Stun), does selecting Electricity as the element convert the damage back to Stun or does it stay Physical?

[Dumori]

Either killing hand s is a requirement to learn the power not to activate. You could easily put killing hand on after activating your electric palms to do P.

Well that's one reading. I'm sure you'll see 100 different ones soon enough as there isn't a real answer. I recall this coming up in another thread recently didn't conclude anything.

[Mäx]

Considering that it says that it enchances killing hands, it doesn't make any sense for it to change your damage back to stun.
Changing your physical damage dealing strike to do stun damage isn't exactly an "enchanting" it.

[Yerameyahu]

Sure it is. It's enhancing it into an elemental effect (chance to stun, unblockable disorientation, and 1/2 Impact armor). Electrical attacks get those effects, and do Stun damage (unless the attack specifically says otherwise).

This question is up to the GM, because neither interpretation is more clearly correct.

[Machiavelli]

I would rather say it "replaces" it, because it is the normal damage for this type of attack. But like Mäx said, there are 2 opinions about it and no official clarification up to now.

[Mäx]

Mostly i just think that there isn't any reason to shaft the guy shoosing electricity over the guy going with for example fire, fire is definedly physical and also slowers the chance of oppisition having special armor against it, as noncondactivity is most likely more common then flame resistant armor. To say nothing of sand, light and few other that there isn't even any armor mod against.

[jaellot]

If I recall right, if you do this with the Sonic/Sound elemental affect it does make it Stun. It also bypasses armor (to some degree). An Adept in my game has that combo, he still misses his Shadowlords from WtA...

[Yerameyahu]

As I already explained, the Electricity guy is not getting 'shafted'. Any living target he touches gets -2 to everything, with a chance to be totally incapacitated. Besides, he *chose* Electricity from the (as you mention) very wide range of options.

[Shinobi Killfist]

If I recall right, if you do this with the Sonic/Sound elemental affect it does make it Stun. It also bypasses armor (to some degree). An Adept in my game has that combo, he still misses his Shadowlords from WtA...

Yeah smoke and sonic don't halve the armor they negate it. I'd be leery of allowing either one of those as elemental strike powers even if it is stun damage. Outside of balance issues it just doesn't make much sense to me. Smoke at least is doing damage based on chocking people out, smoke hands wouldn't be doing that except on called shots to the face I mean I guess I can say every hit surrounds the target entirely but meh it is just too good IMO. Sonic I guess the sound waves could travel through your body or whatever but it is unbalanced as get all out. Personally I do not like a .5 PP power giving access to even 1/2 armor effects, I'd prefer it just give you the special side effects like nausea and accept that some elemental effects do nothing.

[Dumori]

If I recall right, if you do this with the Sonic/Sound elemental affect it does make it Stun. It also bypasses armor (to some degree). An Adept in my game has that combo, he still misses his Shadowlords from WtA...

Sonic can never be S electric damage can be P or S

[Neurosis]

Does it say anywhere in the rules that Electric defaults to S?

A lightning bolt does P and is magic. Your fists do are magic. They should do P. Congratulations. Your fists are a lightning bolt.

[Yerameyahu]

It says it everywhere, in fact. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Just kidding: it says it on SR4A p163, 'Electricity Damage'. Lightning Bolt is a specific exception; there's no general rule for, "Your fists do are magic." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If making your hands electrical damage doesn't make it Stun, then maybe it also doesn't do 1/2 Impact, give a chance to incapacitate, or apply a -2 disorientation penalty. *shrug* Again, the rules are unclear and you can't just start making things up (unless you're willing to admit that's what you're doing, of course).

SM p164 discusses Elemental Effects in the same way as SR4A p163 (which SM specifically refers you to for use with the Elemental Strike power): it mentions whether the Effect does P or S damage, and describes secondary effects. There's no good reason to ignore the former and follow the latter, unless you decide there's a 'it only adds secondary effects' rule. Then you have to decide if 1/2 Impact is a primary effect or a secondary effect, to support your house rule.

There's nothing *wrong* with making such house rules as I've mentioned, but don't pretend that they're RAW, or the only valid interpretation of RAW.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yeah that is the main issue, there is no concrete rule on it. Just pick what is balanced and fun for your game. In the other thread I was mainly arguing one side to be an ass because TJ took what I considered an obvious joke seriously and I decided to roll with it.

[Yerameyahu]

Incidentally, it would be a cool house rule for Elemental Strike to briefly surround the entire target with the chosen element, if that would make certain element choices more balanced. Smoke, Light, and Ice, for example, really depend on such a 'surrounding effect' for their secondary effects to work.

[Neraph]

Allowing Sonic damage to be Physical because the Adept has Killing Hands is a bad idea - trust me.

The best way to run it is that the elemental effects overwrite everything else the Adept has. IE: Electricity Strike deals stun damage, does -1/2 AP, and all the other electricity effects. It also does not add any additional damage - just adds the elemental effects onto the Adept's unarmed attacks.

Think of it like a special ammo. Normally the Adept is using Regular Ammo - his standard punches (with Killing Hands/Critical Strike). The Elemental Strike is like using a different kind of ammo; you use his DV with Crit Strike and such, but the damage type (S or P) and elemental effects now become dependant on the Element he's Striking as.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah that is the main issue, there is no concrete rule on it. Just pick what is balanced and fun for your game. In the other thread I was mainly arguing one side to be an ass because TJ took what I considered an obvious joke seriously and I decided to roll with it.

Probably because I missed the Joke... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

No worries though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Neurosis]

It says it everywhere, in fact. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Just kidding: it says it on SR4A p163, 'Electricity Damage'. Lightning Bolt is a specific exception; there's no general rule for, "Your fists do are magic." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Welp, I fail at proofreading my post. : (

[Yerameyahu]

Hehe. Obviously a 'typo' and nothing more, but I couldn't help it; it sounds like the bad dub from a kung fu movie. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)