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> Dart gun : Zing you're hit
IKerensky
post Sep 21 2010, 11:50 AM
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"Injection Darts: For use with dart guns of various types—such as
the Parashield pistol and rifle—injection darts carry a single dose of a
drug or toxin. Effects depend on the drug payload, but to successfully
deliver the payload and penetrate armor, the attacker needs two net
hits on the Ranged Combat Opposed Test." SR4A - P.324

Ok, contrarily to other injection methods (arrows, needles and thus) all you need is 2 success on an opposed roll to inject the toxin ? This is from SR4A so I suppose Military Armour were taken into account when conceiving that ?

Seriously, 2 hit square then down they go ? perfect weapon to dual-wield..
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CeeJay
post Sep 21 2010, 12:26 PM
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For what it's worth: Military Armor cannot be penetrated by injection darts. That is specifically stated in Arsenal...

And most toxins have a speed of 1 combat turn, meaning the target will get at least one more action phase before damaga is applied. Even hitting someone with Nacroject darts (speed immediate, 10 DV Stun) does not guarantee a dropped target. Just one hit on the drug resistance test will usually be enough to stay conscious...
And if a target has another action after he got hit but before the toxin resistance test is made, there is enough time to administer an antidote patch...
Another point: Toxins are way more expensive than gel rounds or SnS.

-CJ
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IKerensky
post Sep 21 2010, 12:48 PM
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Hum, what if I use 2 different toxin in the 2 guns or hit someone with 2 doses of the same toxin ?

Sure he will only get down at the turn end but resisting twice should be far enough. As always first shooter is always right (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) and surprise seems more essential for toxins.
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Summerstorm
post Sep 21 2010, 01:07 PM
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The whole thing with the dartguns doesn't feel right, though.

There should be a damage resist test, but body shouldn't be involved. A Dart should have low damage (possible just stun to reflect minor damage) and high armor piercing effect (maybe /half or -4AP?). You can shoot somebody with it in the face though, and so it might be used to kill/hurt someone too. All armors with hard components should be able to deflect them, though.

(Vest with plates, Lined Coat, PPP-Systems, military and maybe Riot-armor)

So how do we do it mechanicly? (I will be back later with something... have some ideas but have to make it fast and easy (and not too much different from the normal rules)
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Yerameyahu
post Sep 21 2010, 01:10 PM
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There was another thread about this last month, if you want to search for it. The upshot is that it doesn't really make sense with the other darts/weapons in the game; either you have to live with it, or house rule it. :/
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Reg06
post Sep 21 2010, 01:18 PM
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QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Sep 21 2010, 01:07 PM) *
So how do we do it mechanicly? (I will be back later with something... have some ideas but have to make it fast and easy (and not too much different from the normal rules)


Rule that rather than needing 2 hits, and milspec armor being completely immune (or maybe keep that, milspec armor is supposed to be badass), that the shooter must take the armor bypass penalty in order to deliver the poison (I can't remember the exact keyword, but the one where you take a penalty to hit equal to the armor value and the target then doesn't get to add armor to the soak pool). If the attack fails it hits some armor and has a DV of 1S.
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Yerameyahu
post Sep 21 2010, 01:21 PM
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That's the Called Shot to Bypass Armor. The problem is that this means darts will probably never work now; if that's not what you wanted in your game, the solution doesn't fit. :/ It also requires using a Called Shot action (unless you also waive that).

The simplest house rule to keep dart guns in the realm of options, but not auto-ignoring armor, is to just raise that Threshold from 2 to 3, 4, etc. Wherever is hard enough to be fair, and easy enough to be possible at your table.
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Prime Mover
post Sep 21 2010, 01:59 PM
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Theres been a half dozen or more threads about this.
Arsenal has damage codes for darts. (But they don't do damage)
Darts have an AP? (But target doesn't get an armor resistance test.)
Onset times are wonky.
What happens when I use drugs instead of chemicals? (This was answered somewhat in arsenal, use power 6 for most drugs.)

I think we've tried several times over the years to goad the powers that be to answer the question. The answer so far has been the two success's rule.
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Karoline
post Sep 21 2010, 02:03 PM
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How about 1 net hit required for every 3 points of armor?

Makes it 2-4 hits on an average runner, and upwards of 6 net hits required for stuff like milspec armor.

Or if you prefer rolling dice, do a normal attack, damage of the dart = net hits. Soak with armor only, if the damage isn't reduced to 0, then the toxin goes to work.
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Yerameyahu
post Sep 21 2010, 04:20 PM
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1:3 seems fair at first blush, Karoline. Impact or Ballistic? Higher/lower of the two?
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Stingray
post Sep 21 2010, 04:35 PM
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What about 2 guns, one loaded S-n s and other Capsule rounds (loaded w/DMSO and Narcojet)
both guns to the targets side,firing 2 shots each gun..GOING DOWN!!!!
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Yerameyahu
post Sep 21 2010, 04:59 PM
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And expensive. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It depends on what you need for the job.
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pbangarth
post Sep 21 2010, 05:47 PM
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Forgive me if I am falling into the trap of trying to introduce reality into Shadowrun. I just want to point out that dart weapons have a long history of circumventing the protection of hard armor.

A prime example that comes to mind is the trouble the Spanish (and Portuguese) had during the conquest of South America. One of the few weapons that existed in the Americas at the time that gave trouble to the metal plated conquistadors was the blowgun dart. All that was needed was a single scratch (two net successes on a ranged combat test?) and the conquistador was in trouble. And if you could hit a monkey 100 feet up in a thick tree canopy, you could hit a conquistador in a vital spot.
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Yerameyahu
post Sep 21 2010, 06:02 PM
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Definitely too much reality, and at the same time, not enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If they can hit that monkey, their DP is *huge*, and that's an unarmored target. Conquistadores didn't wear full body armor, but many runners do; hitting skin on a man in a breastplate is hardly a 'vital spot'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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sabs
post Sep 21 2010, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 21 2010, 07:02 PM) *
Definitely too much reality, and at the same time, not enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If they can hit that monkey, their DP is *huge*, and that's an unarmored target. Conquistadores didn't wear full body armor, but many runners do; hitting skin on a man in a breastplate is hardly a 'vital spot'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


aimed shot face
2 net hits (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
zing!
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Neurosis
post Sep 21 2010, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE (CeeJay @ Sep 21 2010, 08:26 AM) *
For what it's worth: Military Armor cannot be penetrated by injection darts. That is specifically stated in Arsenal...

And most toxins have a speed of 1 combat turn, meaning the target will get at least one more action phase before damaga is applied. Even hitting someone with Nacroject darts (speed immediate, 10 DV Stun) does not guarantee a dropped target. Just one hit on the drug resistance test will usually be enough to stay conscious...
And if a target has another action after he got hit but before the toxin resistance test is made, there is enough time to administer an antidote patch...
Another point: Toxins are way more expensive than gel rounds or SnS.

-CJ


I agree with this post.

You'll get him, but will you get him before he takes your fucking head off with his less-than-less-than-lethal weapons is the question. There is no way he's not going to get 1-3 successes on the drug resistance test, unless he's such a soft target that it doesn't matter what you use. I believe (hope?) that dart pistols are SS but I haven't checked. Assuming they are, if you're dual wielding and splitting dice pools, the chance of getting two successes on both attacks goes down significantly. You might even miss both times if his Reaction is good, it could happen. You're better off with the one shot, guaranteed to do about six to nine boxes of stun (congratulations, you are starting level mage with stunbolt, but that is another issue : P) and after that, well, all things being equal he gets a shot at you.

I think dart guns are good but not too good. Although that being said, I WAS surprised that they no longer had to penetrate armor.

EDIT:

QUOTE (Stingray @ Sep 21 2010, 12:35 PM) *
What about 2 guns, one loaded S-n s and other Capsule rounds (loaded w/DMSO and Narcojet)
both guns to the targets side,firing 2 shots each gun..GOING DOWN!!!!


With dice pools of what, exactly? If you're rolling more than seven or eight dice for each attack, you must be very tweaked indeed. Anyway, fortunately there are nonconductivity and chemical seal options. You'd be better off with a stunbolt. : P
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Yerameyahu
post Sep 21 2010, 06:25 PM
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Sabs, that's exactly the point: you've just described a Called Shot to Bypass Armor.
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Neurosis
post Sep 21 2010, 06:36 PM
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Yes the problem is that if a GM allows a Called Shot: Face (-4 Penalty) to replace a Called Shot to Bypass Armor (-Armor penalty, up to -12 or more) and do the same thing, that would be bad.

In general, I think that Called Shot (-DP;+DV) is overpowered and Called Shot (Bypass Armor) is underpowered (probably situational exceptions to both of these).
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Yerameyahu
post Sep 21 2010, 06:44 PM
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It'd be a house rule if the GM did that, so there's nothing we can do about GMs introducing their own imbalance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) By the RAW, merely hitting the face is nothing special with respect to DV or Armor, unless it's specifically a Called Shot to Increase Damage or Bypass Armor.
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pbangarth
post Sep 21 2010, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 21 2010, 01:02 PM) *
Definitely too much reality, and at the same time, not enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If they can hit that monkey, their DP is *huge*, and that's an unarmored target. Conquistadores didn't wear full body armor, but many runners do; hitting skin on a man in a breastplate is hardly a 'vital spot'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Well, minimalist metal body armor involved a breastplate and skirts that covered considerably more of the body than SR's armored vest. As far as DP for the hunter goes, that's a guess. A great hunter might hit with every dart. An ordinary one might have to use several.
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Yerameyahu
post Sep 21 2010, 07:15 PM
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I was thinking of FFBA, which is why I said 'many runners'. Still, lots of normals in SR are probably wearing full-body clothing, which generally has some armor weave. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But, of course, realism has no place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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sabs
post Sep 21 2010, 07:30 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 21 2010, 08:15 PM) *
I was thinking of FFBA, which is why I said 'many runners'. Still, lots of normals in SR are probably wearing full-body clothing, which generally has some armor weave. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But, of course, realism has no place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


I like using FFBA and a nice designer armored business suit.
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Neurosis
post Sep 21 2010, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 21 2010, 01:44 PM) *
It'd be a house rule if the GM did that, so there's nothing we can do about GMs introducing their own imbalance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) By the RAW, merely hitting the face is nothing special with respect to DV or Armor, unless it's specifically a Called Shot to Increase Damage or Bypass Armor.


What I meant is that "Called Shot to Increase Damage" is generally stronger than "Called Shot to Bypass Armor".
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Yerameyahu
post Sep 21 2010, 07:37 PM
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I know, Neurosis, and I agree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I was commenting in the first 'GM allows' bit: that would be even stronger, of course.
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KarmaInferno
post Sep 21 2010, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 21 2010, 01:02 PM) *
Definitely too much reality, and at the same time, not enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If they can hit that monkey, their DP is *huge*, and that's an unarmored target. Conquistadores didn't wear full body armor, but many runners do; hitting skin on a man in a breastplate is hardly a 'vital spot'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


I would have to imagine that their biggest problem isn't getting hit by one dart.

It's getting hit by dozens of blowdarts simultaneously. At least one is likely to hit skin, and then...





-karma
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