Dart gun : Zing you're hit Options

[Karoline]

1:3 seems fair at first blush, Karoline. Impact or Ballistic? Higher/lower of the two?

I figure ballistic, as a dart is fairly similar to a bullet.

I like my method because it considers both the ability of the dart to pierce armor outright, and for the dart to hit an unarmored spot because armor rating is a combination of strength and coverage of the worn armor.

[Yerameyahu]

It's certainly intended to be Impact, by the RAW. I was just asking because someone would, and we're talking about house rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I say Impact.

Indeed, KarmaInferno. So what's that mean for SR4? If it takes dozens of shots (simultaneous also means Dodge penalties), then armor should be pretty effective, no?

[sabs]

I figure ballistic, as a dart is fairly similar to a bullet.

I like my method because it considers both the ability of the dart to pierce armor outright, and for the dart to hit an unarmored spot because armor rating is a combination of strength and coverage of the worn armor.

I will have you note that Bullet Proof vests stop arrows about as well as they stop knives.
Which is to say, way worse than bullets.

[Karoline]

It's certainly intended to be Impact, by the RAW. I was just asking because someone would, and we're talking about house rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I say Impact.

Indeed, KarmaInferno. So what's that mean for SR4? If it takes dozens of shots (simultaneous also means Dodge penalties), then armor should be pretty effective, no?

Oh, is it? I was just guessing. Use impact then.

[Yerameyahu]

I mean, I wasn't trying to trick you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I could see using the higher or lower of the two, if that helped the balance. Armor in SR4 is *mostly* balanced for B/I, so it's probably that a big issue in the first place.

[Mongoose]

1:3 seems fair at first blush, Karoline. Impact or Ballistic? Higher/lower of the two?

Higher of Ballistic or TWICE impact. Impact armor is specifically designed to block pokey things from breaking your skin. Called shots to bypass armor are figured before this doubling, so very advisable vs folks with decent impact armor.

Though I prefer the "armor rolls to resist" idea. Allows there to be the (small) possibility that somebody with only a couple attack dice could still get a dart past heavy armor.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* Knives and flechette don't have to go against double Impact. The idea is to use something that's fair, functional, balanced. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If you have the standard 6 Impact, that's 4 *net* hits; pretty prohibitive, esp. for NPCs.

[Karoline]

Though I prefer the "armor rolls to resist" idea. Allows there to be the (small) possibility that somebody with only a couple attack dice could still get a dart past heavy armor.

Yeah, or someone to luck out and have someone hit the hardest part of their armor, which is why I suggested it.

[jakephillips]

That's the Called Shot to Bypass Armor. The problem is that this means darts will probably never work now; if that's not what you wanted in your game, the solution doesn't fit. :/ It also requires using a Called Shot action (unless you also waive that).

The simplest house rule to keep dart guns in the realm of options, but not auto-ignoring armor, is to just raise that Threshold from 2 to 3, 4, etc. Wherever is hard enough to be fair, and easy enough to be possible at your table.

I agree. I remember that in 2nd I think you needed net hit = to impact armor to punch with a narcoject dart. Houserule for us is net hits = to half impact armor +1 to inject

[DMiller]

We use (firmly in the realm of house rules here):
Attacker rolls attack test, Defender rolls ranged dodge
If attacker's net hits >= modified impact armor (dart guns do have an AP of -2) then the dart connects with flesh, toxin delivered.

-D

[Yerameyahu]

So that's 4 *net* hits on the standard 8/6 'good' armor. I don't know if that's doable, especially considering Impact armors of 8 or 10+. :/ Hmm. I thinking of NPCs, not runner super-shooters, is the thing. You're also not going to be getting any help from Wide Bursts (except with the Fingertip Dartguns). It's certainly fair for a heavily armored runner to be basically immune to darts, but it'd be nice if the 'immunity' level of armoring was more special for MilSpec.

On the other hand, it's only 6 dice more than the current rules require. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's annoying for balance to hinge on such small increments. What do you guys think? Should the goal be that CorpSec can reliably dart an 8/6 'normal Dodger' foe within 2-3 shots, or some other baseline?

[Saint Sithney]

Personally, I like Karoline's idea where the target rolls reaction (+dodge) + armor straight up against the shooter's pool. 1 net hit from the attacker means that the target gets stuck.

Well, it would actually be the regular attack rules, really. So, the player/BBEG can use edge on each test. The dodge and the soak.
That means a shooter's net hits can be dropped by edge, just like a regular attack, and armor's net hits can be raised by edge as well. Besides, it adds more variation than the threshold based on 1:3 armor, since that's basically just assuming 1 hit for every 3 armor for this same test.

[DMiller]

Yera,

We still allow the called shot to bypass armor as well. At which point you only need 1 net hit past the dodge. I'm not sure if that makes the whole thing easier or harder, but it's an option.

We just started using dart guns in our game, so it's not completly play-tested. We have found that (at least in our games) NPC's aren't usually worried too much about killing the players, so we have yet to see non-lethal attacks directed against us. We have however seen APDS directed against us. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-D

[Karoline]

Personally, I like Karoline's idea where the target rolls reaction (+dodge) + armor straight up against the shooter's pool. 1 net hit from the attacker means that the target gets stuck.

Well, it would actually be the regular attack rules, really. So, the player/BBEG can use edge on each test. The dodge and the soak.
That means a shooter's net hits can be dropped by edge, just like a regular attack, and armor's net hits can be raised by edge as well. Besides, it adds more variation than the threshold based on 1:3 armor, since that's basically just assuming 1 hit for every 3 armor for this same test.

Glad so many people seem to like my idea (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I considered doing 1:4 originally (the normal ratio for buying hits) but that seemed like it would go through armor a little too easily. Even heavy milspec would only take 4 net hits to bypass, so figured 1:3 was a little better, and then figured I'd add 'or just roll like normal' since the idea of a fixed net hits in a situation like this isn't the greatest in the first place.