Complex Form Top 10's, (Or 12's) Options

[SleepIncarnate]

Hey all, I know a lot of people hate TM's, but a lot of us love em too, but one of their biggest problems is that they're so limited at character creation. With the Logic x2 rule for CF's, they can start with at most 12, but most will go with 8-10, so what in everyone's opinions are the top 10 or 12 CF's that every TM should start with, in order of priority, and which ones they should just leave to their sprites or buy as progs on a commlink until they get karma? If you think hacker and rigger TM's should have different ones, then say so and list them.

[Summerstorm]

Hm...

1: Stealth, Exploit, Decrypt - so you can be wherever you want

All other you can just sent sprites to do or thread *g*.

[Mäx]

Hey all, I know a lot of people hate TM's, but a lot of us love em too, but one of their biggest problems is that they're so limited at character creation. With the Logic x2 rule for CF's, they can start with at most 12

Actually they can get as many as 22, max starting Logic for a TM is 11(mundanes can get to 12).
But that wont really be a viable character. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Karoline]

Lets see... Stealth and analyze are your top two programs. Without stealth you can't enter a hostile system without being quickly found out, and without analyze, you are literally blind on the matrix.

After that I'd say exploit for getting into systems. If you really wanted you could get in with sprites, but time can be a big factor, and that adds several IPs to the break in time.

Lets see. Then shield is important for not getting hit in combat.

After that it kind of depends on what you want to do. Browse can often be left to sprites in hostile systems, and commlinks when you are searching the entire 'trix.

An attack program is potentially important unless you have a tank sprite, and even then it is nice to have extra firepower when you need it.

Oh, nearly forgot scan. You can't hack into a node if you can't find it, and you can't find it without scan. You could maybe use a commlink for this, but that could add some time as you go back and forth.

Decrypt and disarm are good, because alot of data is protected, edit is important for keeping yourself out of the logs and has some rather important applications. Okay, lets see if I can list all programs in personal preference order.

Analyze
Stealth
Exploit
Shield
Scan
Attack (If you have tank/paladin drop bellow defuse)
Spoof (If you're using unwired, otherwise drop it below edit)
Decrypt
Defuse
Edit
Armor
Black Hammer/Blackout
Nuke
Command
Sniffer
Browse
Track
Encrypt
Data Bomb
Medic

Might vary somewhat based on a TM's exact style, but the first five in particular are highly important.

[SleepIncarnate]

I see that not only did you leave out the Armor CF there, but you actually rated Medic higher than it (which is pretty useless for a TM unless they wanna heal their sprites or others).

[Karoline]

I see that not only did you leave out the Armor CF there, but you actually rated Medic higher than it (which is pretty useless for a TM unless they wanna heal their sprites or others).

Oops, figured I'd forget something. I suppose it'd go right in there just before the Black stuff. TMs should be focusing more on not getting hit in the first place than in soaking a hit, so it doesn't get a great rating from me. All the more so because if a TM works at it some, they can become near immortal on the matrix.

Threaded stealth so they are near impossible to find, and when they do get found, threaded shielding to be impossible to hit.

If you're real worried you could put it a bit higher, but it doesn't make it into the top five for me.

[SleepIncarnate]

Nope, but it does just barely make it into the top 10. Why are track and encrypt so low? I can see track I guess, same as browse (have sprites do it), but encrypt not so sure. According to Unwired, you need it to have encrypted Matrix communication that others can't pick up as easily (it's in the fluff), so I'd imagine that as something every runner wants.

[Karoline]

The reason it is so low is because you can use a commlink to encrypt a file, and you can run your communications through a commlink and have it encrypt said communications. The main time you need a CF over a program is when it has to be done in a hostile node. Rarely do you have to encrypt something while inside a node that you don't control. It might pop up every once and a while, but that is what threading and sprites is for.

[SleepIncarnate]

Where does Attack fall in that list? Black IC won't work on sprites, agents, etc so you need an Attack as well. You mentioned it in your whole big important ones, but not in your list Guessing it's in your top 5 along with Shield?

[X-Kalibur]

Seeing as we're already using Unwired in here with Shield being mentioned, I'm going to nominate Nuke over Attack. After you're done nuking them you can thread attack if need be (or black <x>)

[Karoline]

Where does Attack fall in that list? Black IC won't work on sprites, agents, etc so you need an Attack as well. You mentioned it in your whole big important ones, but not in your list Guessing it's in your top 5 along with Shield?

Yeash, I even opened my book to make sure I caught all the programs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Guess I'm going senile or blind at the ripe old age of 22.

It doesn't quite make the top five though. Just misses it at 6th place, largely because depending on how you build your TM, you might be better off just doing what you're doing while shield causes all attacks on you to miss, and just hurry up and get out of there. It is however a more subjective one. It is for instance slightly less important if you have a tank or paladin sprite who can either fight for you or make it so you don't need to fight. If you've got them, I'd say drop it just below defuse.

@X-Kalibur: The biggest reason I wouldn't take nuke over attack is it doesn't work on other TMs. They aren't a common opponent, but fighting another TM can be very difficult if you've been investing in nuke instead of attack. Otherwise, you're right, nuke is fairly handy, because even with a handful of hits, you lower all their program ratings, and can quickly make them into a non-threat.

Edit: Alright, adjusted my list again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[SleepIncarnate]

Let's not forget all the nice program options you can load up on an attack CF.... Area, Armor Piercing, Rust, Shredder, Targetting......

[Karoline]

Let's not forget all the nice program options you can load up on an attack CF.... Area, Armor Piercing, Rust, Shredder, Targetting......

You can load those onto blackout/hammer and nuke too.

[SleepIncarnate]

Except for Shredder, it's for attack only (specifically used for crash tests).

[Karoline]

targeting
Program Types: Hacking (Combat programs only)
The Targeting option enables an offensive cybercombat pro-
gram to zero in on a target and pinpoint its weaknesses, providing
a +2 dice pool bonus on Matrix Attack Tests.

I see nowhere that it says it only works on the Attack program.

[SleepIncarnate]

You're looking at targeting. Look at shredder.

Shredder
Program Types: Hacking (Attack programs only)
The Shredder option enables the Attack program to more
effectively subvert code that stabilizes a program or OS. Apply a
+2 dice pool modifier for all Crash Tests.

[Karoline]

Ah, I was misreading what you wrote. I thought you meant that everything except for Shredder only worked on Attack.

[SleepIncarnate]

Let's throw in an odd loop and ask then the top 10 echoes as well. I know a lot of people would say overclocking and its advanced form, but what about biowires and the meatspace IP ones? Or swap, or sprite link, or any of the "boost your firewall/system/signal/etc" echoes?

[jakephillips]

Lets see... Stealth and analyze are your top two programs. Without stealth you can't enter a hostile system without being quickly found out, and without analyze, you are literally blind on the matrix.

After that I'd say exploit for getting into systems. If you really wanted you could get in with sprites, but time can be a big factor, and that adds several IPs to the break in time.

Lets see. Then shield is important for not getting hit in combat.

After that it kind of depends on what you want to do. Browse can often be left to sprites in hostile systems, and commlinks when you are searching the entire 'trix.

An attack program is potentially important unless you have a tank sprite, and even then it is nice to have extra firepower when you need it.

Oh, nearly forgot scan. You can't hack into a node if you can't find it, and you can't find it without scan. You could maybe use a commlink for this, but that could add some time as you go back and forth.

Decrypt and disarm are good, because alot of data is protected, edit is important for keeping yourself out of the logs and has some rather important applications. Okay, lets see if I can list all programs in personal preference order.

Analyze
Stealth
Exploit
Shield
Scan
Attack (If you have tank/paladin drop bellow defuse)
Spoof (If you're using unwired, otherwise drop it below edit)
Decrypt
Defuse
Edit
Armor
Black Hammer/Blackout
Nuke
Command
Sniffer
Browse
Track
Encrypt
Data Bomb
Medic

Might vary somewhat based on a TM's exact style, but the first five in particular are highly important.

Why does it matter if you are using unwired?

[Dumori]

touch link, swap, overclockingx2 are my top 4 the biowires/meat IPs ones are nice but but nor as nice as hacking by touch making any tech restraines useless as well as most doors openable is always usefull.

[Karoline]

Why does it matter if you are using unwired?

It matters because with just the core book, spoof has a single use. Unwired introduced about a half dozen new uses for spoof.

I'll have to think about Echos.

[Karoline]

Well, here is my list

[ Spoiler ]

Macro
Mesh Reality
Overclocking
Advanced Overclocking
Biowire
Defragmentation
Multiprocessing
Acceleration
Skinlink
Swap
Sprite Link
Widget Crafting
Firewall Upgrade
System Upgrade
Resonance Trodes
Mind Over Machine
NeuroFilter
Resonance Link
Enhanced Resonance Link
Resonance Exchange
Sparky
Immersion
E-sensing
Info Sortilege
Sift
Coenesthesia
Blur
Flexible Touch
Living ECM
Amplification

The problem is that Echos are far more subjective based on what kind of TM you are. Every TM is going to need certain CFs, but the Echos allow for a much greater degree of specialization. Immersion for example got a fairly low rating, not because it is bad, but because only a dronomancer is going to get any real benefit from it. Any other TM is just going to use command. The bottom two however, got low ratings because they truly deserved them. Amplification is pointless, you rarely have to worry about what your signal is thanks to the way the matrix works, and even if you are worried about it, just grab a cheap commlink and stick a good signal in it. Similarly with ECM, there is no real reason for a TM to bother becoming a living jammer when a technological jammer works several times better and is absurdly cheaper. Now, I could see an interesting plot with a TM with 12+ submersion grades and that Echo crashing an entire city or something like that, but it just really isn't going to pay off for any character with less than double digits in their submersion grade.

And yes, Macro claims the top spot for me. The extra response and IP from Overclocking is nice, but Macro doubles the number of complex actions you can take in an IP (and thus a combat turn) for a paltry -2 penalty. And yes, I know I put Mesh Reality higher than its prereq Echo. The position multiprocessing gets is one it holds on its own, without consideration for it being a gateway for Mesh Reality.

P.S. The reason that Coenesthesia, Blur, and Flexible Touch got such low ratings was less because of their own ability, and more because of the general rarity of TMs, and especially of using things like resonance fingerprints, at least in the games I've played in.

[Smokeskin]

Be aware that if you're delegating tasks to sprites, most of the time you can only uses sprites with Stealth. Without stealth, anything running Analyze will spot your sprite easily and sound an alarm.

[SleepIncarnate]

Be aware that if you're delegating tasks to sprites, most of the time you can only uses sprites with Stealth. Without stealth, anything running Analyze will spot your sprite easily and sound an alarm.

Guess it's a good thing then that every sprite either already has stealth or is designed for times when stealth is either unnecessary (such as data searches, use of knowsofts or lingusofts, controlling one of your drones, etc) or out of the question (combat).

[Smokeskin]

So you never hack into a node and want to browse or command? Of course you do. When you pick sprites, you can't rely on the Stealth-less ones to assist you on hacks, and it would really suck to have some essential programs not covered by a CF or stealthed sprite. Needing powers from two different sprites to have the essentials covered also gives some hassle.

You might even want a combat sprite ready to fight at any time, rather than having to compile it first before it can help. You don't have that option with Tank and Paladin.