How does Initiative work?, An example of a Combat Round in SR4A Options

[KemeticCultus]

Can someone please write out a thorough example of how combat turns, initiative passes and things like wired reflexes work in a round? What is not clear is when someone with several Initiative Passes gets to use them. In SR2, if someone has an Initiative Score of 32, they'll go in 32, 22, 12 and 2, which seems clear and logical. SR2 also covered resolving ties, whereas SR4A simply says that players with the same score will go at the same time.

Thank you.

[Yerameyahu]

In 4, you use your passes after everyone else: everyone goes on Pass 1, then anyone who *can* goes on Pass 2, etc.

You can devise tie-breakers, but the idea is to resolve everyone's actions (in a tie) independently. If A and B tie, and they each shoot each other, neither attack (during the tied 'moment') suffers wound penalties, even if a wound is inflicted. It's like parallel spinoff realities, and you merge everything at the end of that tied 'moment'.

[Neurosis]

I am not sure if this will be quite as thorough as desired (since it will be quite a simple example) but here goes.

Let's say that the team is comprised of a Mage, a Hacker, an Adept, and a Street Samurai. They are fighting some Triads who will all be acting on the same initiative. The combat is taking place entirely in the meat realm. Everyone begins fresh.

The Mage has an Initiative Score of 8 and one Initiative Pass and rolls two successes. He will only go on Initiative 10 in Pass One.
The Hacker has an Initiative Score of 12, One Initiative Pass, and rolls four successes. He will only go on Initiative 16 in Pass One.
The Adept has an Initiative Score of 9, and two Initiative Passes and rolls three successes. He goes on Initiative 12 in Passes One and Two.
The Street Samurai has an Initiative Score of 11, Three Initiative Passes, and rolls five successes. He goes on Initiative 16 in Passes,One, Two, and Three.
The Triads have Initiative 8 and one IP, roll three successes, and will go on Initiative 11 in Pass One.

The initiative order looks like this:

-PASS ONE-
Samurai/Hacker: 16
Adept: 12
Triads: 11
Mage: 10

-PASS TWO-
Samurai: 16
Adept: 12

-PASS THREE-
Samurai: 16

Note that Initiative Passes are not a function of initiative score any longer. Everyone gets to go once, and then people with extra passes get to go. As for actions that are resolved "simultaneously", you can really resolve them in whatever order is convenient to you.

[Toloran]

I have a related question:

If you delay an action until a later initiative pass, what is the limit on that? Can you delay until a pass when nobody else has an action? If someone has 5 IPs can you delay until IP 6? or what?

[jakephillips]

I have a related question:

If you delay an action until a later initiative pass, what is the limit on that? Can you delay until a pass when nobody else has an action? If someone has 5 IPs can you delay until IP 6? or what?

Can't get more than 5 with 4 passes and an edge to get an extra pass. Not sure if you can delay to a later pass but I don't think so.

[Sephiroth]

Technically you are only allowed 4 Initiative passes, with technomancers able to get an exception and get up to 5 IP (up to 4 in the meatworld and the remaining IP's in the Matrix). SR4A introduced some vagueness into this rule with a tweaked wording, but the general rule remains that you cannot have more than 4 IP. Good lord, 6 IP would be insane...

[Udoshi]

Technically you are only allowed 4 Initiative passes, with technomancers able to get an exception and get up to 5 IP (up to 4 in the meatworld and the remaining IP's in the Matrix). SR4A introduced some vagueness into this rule with a tweaked wording, but the general rule remains that you cannot have more than 4 IP. Good lord, 6 IP would be insane...

I'm fairly sure that in 4a, a 5 pass hacker(booster+accelerator) or technomancer(advanced overclocking) can use Edge to get one more pass. Sure, you can't do it regularly, but its a nice trick to have up your sleeve.

[Toloran]

Can't get more than 5 with 4 passes and an edge to get an extra pass. Not sure if you can delay to a later pass but I don't think so.

Technically you are only allowed 4 Initiative passes, with technomancers able to get an exception and get up to 5 IP (up to 4 in the meatworld and the remaining IP's in the Matrix). SR4A introduced some vagueness into this rule with a tweaked wording, but the general rule remains that you cannot have more than 4 IP. Good lord, 6 IP would be insane...

I think i wrote my question wrong since that's not what I'm asking.

Player A has 3 initiative passes, player B has 5 (Technomancer).

Both A and B go on Initiaitve pass 1 and 2. On 3, A delays his IP until another IP. Technomancer goes on 3, 4, and 5. Can A delay until 6 or does he HAVE to go on 5? or earlier? I'm sorry if this question doesn't make sense.

[KemeticCultus]

Both A and B go on Initiaitve pass 1 and 2. On 3, A delays his IP until another IP. Technomancer goes on 3, 4, and 5. Can A delay until 6 or does he HAVE to go on 5? or earlier? I'm sorry if this question doesn't make sense.

As a GM I would allow the delay to occur at the time of the last Initiative Pass or before the Initiative Scores are rolled for the next Combat Round. If a character is "laying in wait" he is "laying in wait," pure and simple.

[Thanee]

IPs are determined at the start of the combat round.

This is important, among other things, because movement is based on the number of IPs (total movement per round divided by number of IPs). You can move in an IP even if you do not have an action there.

Spending Edge to gain an extra IP has to be done at the beginning of a pass. It can only be used in a pass, where someone else gets to act (because otherwise there is no such pass and hence you will never get to the step where you can spend Edge to act in it), and if you cannot act yourself in that pass (obviously, you cannot act twice during a single pass). Edge can only be used as an equalizer. It is therefore impossible to get 6 IPs in Shadowrun as of now (and 5 IPs only in the Matrix, or with Edge outside of the Matrix, if you have 4 IPs already, and someone with 5 IPs is present in the Matrix and participates in the combat).

You cannot add IPs to the round by delaying either. If you delay further, you delay into the next combat round.

Bye
Thanee

[sabs]

The rules clearly indicate that you can never get more than 5 IP's no matter what you do.

[Toloran]

The rules clearly indicate that you can never get more than 5 IP's no matter what you do.

I understand that, but the question was whether you can act in IP 1, act in IP 2, and then delay your 3rd IP until IP 6. You're only acting in 3 initiative passes.

IPs are determined at the start of the combat round.

This is important, among other things, because movement is based on the number of IPs (total movement per round divided by number of IPs). You can move in an IP even if you do not have an action there.

Spending Edge to gain an extra IP has to be done at the beginning of a pass. It can only be used in a pass, where someone else gets to act (because otherwise there is no such pass and hence you will never get to the step where you can spend Edge to act in it), and if you cannot act yourself in that pass (obviously, you cannot act twice during a single pass). Edge can only be used as an equalizer. It is therefore impossible to get 6 IPs in Shadowrun as of now (and 5 IPs only in the Matrix, or with Edge outside of the Matrix, if you have 4 IPs already, and someone with 5 IPs is present in the Matrix and participates in the combat).

You cannot add IPs to the round by delaying either. If you delay further, you delay into the next combat round.

Bye
Thanee

I think this is the best answer for my question so far. Thank you.


I know the question was kinda... confusing. This is mostly because I look at rules and try to see how much they bend before they break. Unfortunately, I'm not as experienced at SR as I am at other systems so I don't know the stress points very well.

[sabs]

Well, if you lie in wait, you can delay until initiative 1 of the last IP in the round.
What that last Ip would be would depend on the fastest person around. If noone has more than 3 IP's than you could only delay to go last in IP3.

[Neurosis]

IPs are determined at the start of the combat round.

This is important, among other things, because movement is based on the number of IPs (total movement per round divided by number of IPs). You can move in an IP even if you do not have an action there.

Thanee

This to me is one of the wonkiest things in the rules.

Because it means that characters with LESS IPs can move FASTER right? Like if you have one IP, doesn't that mean you can potentially move your full run speed in one IP? While a character with 4 IP spends the entire turn running, dividing the movement rate up amongst four IP?

Or is that not how it works?

[sabs]

Everyone splits their movement across the Max IP's in a round.

So lets say you have:

Hacker with 1 IP
Mage with 2 IP
Sam with 3 IP
Adept with 2 IP

Goons with 1 IP

The total number of IP's is 3.
You take all movement and divide it by 3.

In IP 1 everyone gets to do their actions, including movement, but they only move 1 IP's worth of movement.
in IP 2, Mage, Sam, and Adept get to act again, but the Hacker and the Goons get to take another IP's worth of movement.
in IP 3, Sam gets to go again, but everyone gets to finish their movement for the turn.

[Neurosis]

Wow. That makes A LOT MORE SENSE than the way we've been doing it at my table. Thanks!

[Toloran]

EDIT: Sabs' explanation is better.
EDIT 2: Although Sabs' explanation is better, things are still... odd... when you start dealing with multiple movement types. Since people with more IPs can sprint MUCH faster then people with fewer IPs.

[Neurosis]

Well that makes sense to me. I mean people with more IPs are super-human samurai, adepts, or on scary combat drugs. It makes sense they would be able to move faster if they tried.

[sabs]

EDIT: Sabs' explanation is better.
EDIT 2: Although Sabs' explanation is better, things are still... odd... when you start dealing with multiple movement types. Since people with more IPs can sprint MUCH faster then people with fewer IPs.

I would really want to say that you can only make 1 running test per 'turn' instead of action phase. But Heck, if I'm giving up simple actions to try to run faster and I'm a scary 4 IP Adept/Street Sam. I'm happy with being able to go fast.

[DireRadiant]

Each IP includes (Free)|(Complex/Simple+Simple)|Move/5 as available to the character
or
X = (Free) + (Complex/Simple+Simple) + Move/5

() denotes the action is only performed if available to the character.

CODE

Players  IP1 IP2 IP3 IP4 IP5
init 26  X   X   X   X   X
init 20  X   X   X   X   X
init 15  X   X   X   X   X
init 11  X   X   X   X   X

Each row is a Combat Turn.
You move down column 1, then column two, etc until there are no more actions. Because characters typically do not all have 5 IP, you'll have a lot of spaces in the turn order that you'll skip because the character cannot act, or you'll simply do movement.

Most of the time you are only doing this for 3 IP, so you can divide Move/3. Or whatever the max IP in the encounter is.

[Udoshi]

A much easier way to think of passes and movement is to take Sabs explanation, and instead of doing math and figuring out who has how many passes, you change it up a little.

Instead, you assume that there are -always- four passes in any given combat turn. Having an extra pass just means you get to act in in. So, everyone divides their movement by four. If nobody else has any action phases left, you wrap up movement, and start a new Combat turn. If someone wants to delay their action, they just say so - there's no inconsistencies with trying to delay to a pass that doesn't exist or something.

Basically the same thing, except the passes are always there, just that most people won't be able to act in all them.

[hobgoblin]

Because it means that characters with LESS IPs can move FASTER right? Like if you have one IP, doesn't that mean you can potentially move your full run speed in one IP? While a character with 4 IP spends the entire turn running, dividing the movement rate up amongst four IP?

But consider this scenario:

2 IP guy and 1 IP guy starts running at the same time.

Then a obstacle shows up, one they will hit at the end of the next IP.

2 IP guy can come to a stop as he have a IP before he hits the obstacle, but 1 IP guy will go splat against said obstacle as he have no action.

Basically, IP is about reaction speed, not movement speed. Higher IP people are allowed to adapt to changes faster.

That is, the metahuman body is able to maintain some very crazy speeds. But the brain cant make use of said speed consciously (consider why martial arts drill specific movements, to the point that one can do them without thinking about it). IP boosters and such allow for that speed to be utilized.

[Yerameyahu]

Exactly: you'll each spend the same *proportion* of your time running. You simply get smaller chunks of time to work with.

[Neurosis]

But consider this scenario:

2 IP guy and 1 IP guy starts running at the same time.

Then a obstacle shows up, one they will hit at the end of the next IP.

2 IP guy can come to a stop as he have a IP before he hits the obstacle, but 1 IP guy will go splat against said obstacle as he have no action.

Basically, IP is about reaction speed, not movement speed. Higher IP people are allowed to adapt to changes faster.

That is, the metahuman body is able to maintain some very crazy speeds. But the brain cant make use of said speed consciously (consider why martial arts drill specific movements, to the point that one can do them without thinking about it). IP boosters and such allow for that speed to be utilized.

1IP Guy just has to use his movement to go around? Presumably using this system, moving includes changing direction and stopping (if not actually vaulting over an obstacle).

[Yerameyahu]

Well, it's not the best example, but if it actually *appears* after his initiative, he can't react to it with an Action (unless, possibly, he interrupts to borrow one).