SRM04 FAQ considerations, Before Bull releases something to be set in stone... Options

[Neurosis]

also IMHO Control thoughts needs to be banned as well

That is THE WORST idea I have seen in a long time.

[KarmaInferno]

I really don't think any "game balance" based changes to ever happen in SRM, unless it's using a published optional rule.

Missions is supposed to be the "official" Shadowrun campaign. It's supposed to represent Shadowrun. Having a bunch of houserules kinda runs counter to that.



-k

[Fringe]

I really don't think any "game balance" based changes to ever happen in SRM, unless it's using a published optional rule.

Missions is supposed to be the "official" Shadowrun campaign. It's supposed to represent Shadowrun. Having a bunch of houserules kinda runs counter to that.



-k

I think that's an excellent point, Karma. I think it's well worth keeping that in mind when making any decisions about the Missions campaign. And my understanding is that Bull and Jason have been working closely for just that reason.

Although I suggested a change to the 4:1 rule, it does have to balance the needs of the campaign with the integrity of the system it represents.

[KarmaInferno]

Heck, even 4:1 wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the degrading dice part.



-k

[LurkerOutThere]

Well i don't normally make game balance suggestions, the problem with possesion is it is poorly worded, poorly understood and insanely powerful. It requires a signifigant amount more GM overhead then normal spirits. The best argument from a balance perspective though is the pages in Digital Grimore devoted to telling us how "possession is totally balanced you guys" and then having to go on for a further page or so suggesting ways to counter or control it.

[SaintHax]

Sadly I agree

also IMHO Control thoughts needs to be banned as well

We are getting into Fahrenheit 451 territory now. If we ban every rule in the SR4A book that people think is overpowered or disruptive, we will be left with nothing eventually.

[Wraith235]

Possession traditions are rough ... I personally had 3 possession mages in the denver missions ... one even combined possession Tradition ... Shapechange (Ape) and Weapon foci .... it was insane


Control Thoughts and the AE version of it

my thoughts on this one is basically that spell is the Swiss Army spell .... there is almost nothing a mage CANT do with that spell ... and theres no real reprocussions if the spell wears off ...


now note I did not say Control Actions or Influence .... as both of those are IMHO more balanced ...

Actions - willpower as a Negative dice pool to the commanded actions

Influence - Permenant effect after a sustainable duration + Target gets a Spell resistane test anytime they are confronted with the wrongness of said action

Thoughts ... you get pretty much nothing .... once hit with it ... depending how bad the mage is .... your pretty much dead


sorry for lack of clarification on my reasons

[Neurosis]

If 'dead' is the issue, manabolt makes you dead faster and more reliably for less drain.

[Wraith235]

AE Version .... Mob mind (think thats the thoughts AE version).... all players put their guns to their head and start pulling trigger .... Dead team

[Dumori]

AE Version .... Mob mind (think thats the thoughts AE version).... all players put their guns to their head and start pulling trigger .... Dead team

They get a roll against suicide by RAW. A better use would be to have the disarm the guns and sitdown and comple to the HTR teams instructions. Also ManaBALL is still better for the killing.

[Wraith235]

They get a roll against suicide by RAW. A better use would be to have the disarm the guns and sitdown and comple to the HTR teams instructions. Also ManaBALL is still better for the killing.

While I agree that they Should .....

No ... they dont .... your thinking influence which is the Permanent duration where they are given a test every time they are confronted with the wrongness of the Idea

.... Control thoughts there is no such resistance test ... its been hashed out over and over on these forums

BUT ... if you can give me a page # and book I will believe you

[LurkerOutThere]

I concur, one of the best arguments for outright banning control thoughts is there are multiple spells that do basically the same thing that are not patently ridiculous.

[Wasabi]

The Influence and Compulsion powers of spirits (Invoked in the case of Compulsion) should be included in anything that happens to Control Thoughts/Mob Mind. They act much the same without any Counterspelling resistance.

[KarmaInferno]

I've found that mind-control builds in nearly every game system tend to be broken.




-k

[Dumori]

I've found that mind-control builds in nearly every game system tend to be broken.




-k

It is mind control.

[SaintHax]

It is mind control.

Did you really just take the time to post for a hyphen?

[KarmaInferno]

I think he meant it as "It IS mind control, after all, it's inherently broken."




-k

[Wasabi]

It wasn't as bad in prior editions where there was a threshold of the targets willpower. Adding that makes it very easy to mitigate or allow on a goon by goon basis.

[Wraith235]

It wasn't as bad in prior editions where there was a threshold of the targets willpower. Adding that makes it very easy to mitigate or allow on a goon by goon basis.

Id forgotten about that .... and yes ... IMHO Control thoughts with a threshhold equal to the targets Willpower would HELP the spell signifigantly .... I dont think it would fix it

[Wasabi]

Thresholds in 4th reduce hits so its pretty harsh to have a threshold of willpower.

EG:
Caster: 6 hits
GM: Threshold 4 so you have 2 hits (rolls 3 willpower dice and 4 counterspelling dice) ...the target gets 2 hits, so you net no hits.

The example above assumes 18 casting dice (Spellcasting 6, magic 6, mentor spirit for 2 and restricted gear rating 4 power focus) versus a target with willpower 3 and a enemy mage providing 4 counterspelling dice.

On average its a tie and thus a fail. The threshold is HARSH and even moreso against Dwarves and such. It pretty much means you'll have to spend edge to net any hits and thats about as far as a nerf stick can go before flat out arbitrary removal.

[Neurosis]

Um, wouldn't the Threshold be 3 if the target's Willpower is 3?

I hate the idea of removing Control Thoughts. It is dumb and it sets a dangerous precedent. Control Thoughts is a perfectly balanced spell.

You want to talk about a spell that's ACTUALLY broken? Stunbolt.

[SaintHax]

Um, wouldn't the Threshold be 3 if the target's Willpower is 3?

I hate the idea of removing Control Thoughts. It is dumb and it sets a dangerous precedent. Control Thoughts is a perfectly balanced spell.

You want to talk about a spell that's ACTUALLY broken? Stunbolt.

I'm 99% positive that SRM will not remove a core spell from play. SRM is now backed by ShadowRun, and how does it look to say that your sponsor has a rule that is so broke we can't play with it. I do agree with the stunbolt, it's been a problem for a while.

Link: My dumpshock post/essay on why stun spells are broke

[Neurosis]

IMHO Stunbolt is the single most powerful spell in Shadowrun 4E, and is much more glaringly overpowered than in previous editions. You can cast it at whatever force you want and you will take no drain. Force 10 Stunbolt all day and all night. And it doesn't stop you from killing people.

But more importantly, THIS:

I'm 99% positive that SRM will not remove a core spell from play. SRM is now backed by ShadowRun, and how does it look to say that your sponsor has a rule that is so broke we can't play with it.

I emphatically agree. Even including stunbolt. SRM has to be representative of the core game. It can't just go houseruling out spells.

EDIT: Wow that topic you linked me to sure is old!

[naga-nuyen]

I say BAN shadowrunners...there illegal anyway!!!!

PC creation process: Roll for which corp you start in, now here is your skill soft and datajack..... and 1 cubicle.
PC created lets start to role play a day at work!

[Fringe]

I say BAN shadowrunners...there illegal anyway!!!!

PC creation process: Roll for which corp you start in, now here is your skill soft and datajack..... and 1 cubicle.
PC created lets start to role play a day at work!

Your first assignment is to extract some donuts from the office next door. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)