SRM04 FAQ considerations, Before Bull releases something to be set in stone... Options

[naga-nuyen]

Whichever Corp scooped up voodoo doughnut is the one I am working For! OmNom bacon goodness!

http://www.voodoodoughnut.com/

[Wraith235]

been thinking about the extended tests thing .... Im fine with buying hits ... but I dont feel that we should be double penalize us by removing 1 die each time we make the test ....

[cndblank]

I think 10% of what they actually loot is better, Chance. Because it does not throw verisimilitude so utterly and completely out the window.

I offer my players a 10% option.

Basically there are fences available that specialize in making hot merchandise disappear and you won't have to worry about it coming back to haunt you.

Yeah they only pay 10%, but what every you fence with them will get scrubbed down, filed down, and more often than not broken down for spare parts, and scattered to the four winds.

They deal in bulk and all transactions are totally cash and carry with no records kept.



Most of the time my players like the hassle free nature and the peace of mind.

[Neurosis]

Not having to calculate what (30% of 3750) -20% -20% -10% comes out to is definitely a good thing.

[Bull]

For the record... The official Season 4 FAQ ruling will look something like this:

Anything stolen, hot, damaged, or something that you cannot legally own (Anything with an F (Forbidden) availability code) sells for 10%.

Anything you legally obtained (Starting gear counts as legally obtained for this purpose), which includes non R (restricted) or F (forbidden) availability items that you purchased through contacts, R (Restricted) items purchased with a valid, legal SIN and License, or items awarded to the players by COntacts and Factions as part of their Mission Payment can all be sold for 30%.

Again, no sell times or rolls are used to simplify the process. At the end of any adventure, mark off what you're selling and have the GM sign off on it.

Bull

[Bull]

And to Clarify, that applies to Season 4 and up, for now Season 3's FAQ is still in effect. This will apply to SRM 04, the 2011 CMPs, and the Prime Missions.

Bull

[LurkerOutThere]

For the record... The official Season 4 FAQ ruling will look something like this:

Anything stolen, hot, damaged, or something that you cannot legally own (Anything with an F (Forbidden) availability code) sells for 10%.

Anything you legally obtained (Starting gear counts as legally obtained for this purpose), which includes non R (restricted) or F (forbidden) availability items that you purchased through contacts, R (Restricted) items purchased with a valid, legal SIN and License, or items awarded to the players by COntacts and Factions as part of their Mission Payment can all be sold for 30%.

Again, no sell times or rolls are used to simplify the process. At the end of any adventure, mark off what you're selling and have the GM sign off on it.

Bull

Bull this doesn't make a lot of sense, why would a legally aquired item be worth more to the black market? It's not like they check your license when you pawn it to the fixer.

[Wasabi]

The SINner quality is pretty clear cut but the legal license part eludes me. How does one get a legal license?

[KarmaInferno]

Bull this doesn't make a lot of sense, why would a legally aquired item be worth more to the black market? It's not like they check your license when you pawn it to the fixer.

Who says you're selling the legal stuff through a black market fixer?

Maybe you're just hocking on Ebay, via a fake SIN.



-k

[LurkerOutThere]

If it's a fake sin it's not a legal transactions o it doesn't matter. This also has the potential to turn Sinner(which is a disadvantage) into an advantage. Not a huge one sure, but it does make it somewhat counter intuitive.

[Chance359]

Rather than write up a new set of rules for the new season, we could use the rules in the core book. I understand that some feel that keeping runners money low is a good thing, but there are those of us who disagree.

[Fringe]

The SINner quality is pretty clear cut but the legal license part eludes me. How does one get a legal license?

Maybe "valid, legal SIN" should just be "valid SIN" with the caveat that you have a valid license for the item in question. It's all "legal" until someone finds out it's fake. Having to have a license means you're losing money for a lot of items anyway, since you wouldn't be able to sell the license itself and each license is tied to a specific item.

I see part of the purpose of this as being to prevent excessive downtime rolling at the end of an already cramped 4-hour con session...especially with those who loot everything that isn't nailed down and then want to spend an hour at the table fencing it all. Another part, I think, is to at least give some benefit to characters who get something they don't want as a Mission reward; it's at least some compensation for the "what's in the box" syndrome.

[SaintHax]

Again, no sell times or rolls are used to simplify the process. At the end of any adventure, mark off what you're selling and have the GM sign off on it.

Bull

Hey, when I roll a Face with lots of contacts and fences, can I simplify the part of the game I'm not good at... e.g. combat and simply say I beat all the bad guys and take 10% damage while doing so? That sure would save time; and I think all those rolls and combat options are very time consuming.

EDIT: Oh, I think hacking is very complex and time consuming-- can we circumvent the RAW on this also? I like the more simplified approach to SR4A that SRM is taking. We can probably fit 2 mods into a 4 hour slot if we can get rid of all the dice rolling.

[Fringe]

An interesting point. Although SRM 4 seems to be set already, perhaps something to keep in mind for the future is just having the Face/Fence do the 'buying hits' program like all the other downtime activities.

The FAQ (and/or each Mission) could just say that stuff 'acquired' outside of the stated Mission reward cannot be kept and sells for no more than enough to compensate for Mission-related expenses. Place limits on those expenses to things like legwork and replacement of expendables actually used during that Mission.

But if the intent is to prevent people from looting the bodies, why not just prohibit it outright? It might be reasonable to assume, for instance, that a typical fence won't be interested in buying a half-dozen blood-soaked Horizon-issued sidearms. And while a helicopter might be worth more, it's also going to be quite a bit harder to fence. Others might argue that for such a big-ticket item the potential profit outweighs the risk, it's certainly a GM (or campaign) call. For Affiliate rewards, though, if the reward is worthless to you, is it really a reward? The Affiliate probably would be willing to exchange it for some cash or something of use in order to keep you in their pocket.

[Caine Hazen]

Man you're all a whiney bunch. Sorry your face is all butthurt by getting some downtime rolls taken away... This is a "living campain" and since downtime has to be take into account, without actually having a babysitte for you, it was simplified for everyone. You'll get over it. The bo-hooing of the vocal minority on this site is so grating I can see why people might be turned off of learning the damn game at a Con. I figure that if we give you all a week hough, you'll find some new way to game the system anyway, so why cry? If the Missions just "don't do it for you" move on and quit ruining the good time for everyone else. Otherwise STFU and get back to enjoying a good Shadowrun.

[suoq]

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry629616

1. Personal attacks, flaming, trolling, and baiting are prohibited.

Thank you.

[Caine Hazen]

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry629616



Thank you.

Posting Guidelines:
While not hard and fast "rules", following these guidelines will help keep DSF tidy and flowing smoothly.

- Please do not try to do the job of the forum staff. If you have an issue that you would like to see addressed, PM a moderator and we will take a look at the situation.

indeed? You've become a Mod now? Wait, no, you haven't...

But I'm calling it like I see it... most of this whining doesn't help the forum, nor does it help develop Missions. Calling people out on their negtive behaviour and telling them how it effects something isn't much trolling or flaming though. More bitching and whining over a sense of entitlement will not help te game. The constructiv criticism has gone through the roper channels, decisions have been made, people who don't like it need to move onwith their lives for now

[Chance359]

People dont like being told they are "whiny" when they continue to focus on what they see is a legitimate issue they feel is being ignored.


Oh and seeing that kind of heavy handed attitude drives people from the game.

[Redjack]

1. Please use the "Report" button rather than acting as a moderator.

2. Personal attacks are a violation of the TOS. Impersonal attacks leveled by a writer and moderator from the official Shadowrun Forum at the "vocal minority on this site" fall within that category.

Play nice.

[KarmaInferno]

Hey, when I roll a Face with lots of contacts and fences, can I simplify the part of the game I'm not good at... e.g. combat and simply say I beat all the bad guys and take 10% damage while doing so? That sure would save time; and I think all those rolls and combat options are very time consuming.

EDIT: Oh, I think hacking is very complex and time consuming-- can we circumvent the RAW on this also? I like the more simplified approach to SR4A that SRM is taking. We can probably fit 2 mods into a 4 hour slot if we can get rid of all the dice rolling.

Your analogy is flawed.

Hacking and combat affects the success or failure of a mission. They definitely affect everyone at the table. They are an integral part of the game session.

Selling off gear affects only the player involved. It more or less is external to most missions, being a "downtime" activity. Having it be more involved or complex means eating up player and GM time, which can be precious especially at conventions or game days that have rigid time slot schedules.

If you were to have hacking or combat somehow occur in "downtime", sure, those should be abstracted to flat results too, for the same reason that selling gear is - it's a campaign structure necessity, not a game balance thing.



-k

[Yerameyahu]

Looting and fencing are definitely the least Shadowrun parts of the game, and subject to video-game-like abuse of the Social system to boot. If the run is a gear-steal, that's one thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[LurkerOutThere]

Actually by design hacking is not an essential part of Missions. It will never be required that to succeed at at a Mission that you have to hack a system. I can dig up Bull's post of same but I believe he plans on keeping it this way. Can it make life easier? Yes, a lot easier in some missions but then again so can having more money. The analogy is more accurate then i think you give it credit. If someone is looting gear, especially big ticket items like the aforementioned helicopter all the groups I've seen do split the profit. Even after the group split a fenced helicopter makes an appreciable dent on the bottom line or significantly increases the groups capabilities(after they have taken efforts to scrub it) if they keep it.

Whether people like it or play that way fencing gear and items is a part of the game. Improving and buying gear and increasing capabilities is also a part of the game. This game is at least at the surface about shooting people in the face for money.As such it's perfectly natural for people want to make more money. All that said i'm pretty comfortable with the 10% rate and the no looting 'ware rule. It means you can kit out the opposition without having to worry about how you've changed the runs pay factor.

@Cain: Your "I should shut the fuck up now" sensor needs some percussive maintenance. There's no other way I can think of to post it. By coming over here and thread shating you've accomplished no measurable good and believe it or not you are alienating people in a very real sense. You have a difference of opinion on how things should be played then Sainthax. (or just a difference in general) That's fine, both your styles are theoretically valid. He's no more "gaming the system" then any given combat monster. This is a game system we're talking about.


On the initial subject i've given it a lot of thought and my top two fixes would be:

No skill checks to raise skills.
Change the 4 to 1 buying rule to 3 to 1 or make the buying hits round up to account for the lost dice on extended tests. This keeps downtime activities simple while still allowing for people to use their skills and make their characters as they see fit. After all if people arn't meant to be improving their characters between runs we might as well not bother with a living campaign at all, or see if we can acquire rights to living Paranoia. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) New mission, new clones!

Everything else is pretty much gravy, yes I'd like to see certain things in the magic section verbotten, especially things like control thoughts that has a mechanically sound duplicate, but I'm not hung up on it. People that are going to abuse the system are going to abuse the system. The writers and campaign staff (myself included) just need to makehave the tools so no one archetype runs roughshod over the

[KarmaInferno]

I think you got hung up on the wording of my post and missed my point. (which really has nothing to do with how much Missions uses hacking in general.)

Hacking and combat = Happens during game play.

Selling loot = Downtime activity.

THAT is the reason for the fast and simple flat 10%. Everything else is secondary.

It's to minimize the time spent at the beginning or end of the slot on this kind of thing, because selling loot only benefits the players involved yet takes up the GM's time. Which either eats up play time, or cuts into the break between slots (or into the next slot for some conventions).



-k

[Wasabi]

To say gear acquisition is a downtime activity doesn't do justice to how dependent SR characters are on their gear.

Hacking impacts a small percentage of the at-table time.
Combat impacts a larger percentage of the at-table time.

Short of being railroaded Shadowrun characters are usually so nerfed without their gear that gear acquisition/improvement is a big factor in how WELL they can hack, engage in combat, and can even impact social tests via Tailored Pheromones and other implants. The players desire for their power creep almost always shows in gear improvement.

I believe this focus on gear is why players care so much about 'loot', sellback percentages and swaying transactions via Face characters. Even if performed in downtime it affects the game as a whole.

The difficulty in downtime actions is a separate issue. I believe a 3:1 with a diminishing dicepool is reasonable OR that a 4:1 with no diminishing dicepool is reasonable. If both are to remain in effect then tests like skill training need to be removed and just allowed to happen using a set amount of lifestyle.

[Chance359]

how about this:

Contacts with a connection rating 1 or 2 will only handle regular gear
3 or 4 will handle restricted gear
5 or 6 will handle forbidden gear.

This might make contacts worth having again.