Does 200 BP attribute cap hurt humans too much? Options

[Smokeskin]

Human chars with always seem to get a really bad statline. The 200 BP attribute cap just really shifts in favor of metahumans when they get at least 3 extra attribute points outside of that cap.

I let humans spend 220 BPs.

[SleepIncarnate]

That 200 BP cap doesn't apply to edge, magic, or resonance. And humans get extra edge, which can REALLY level the playing field. I've seen human snipers pull off amazing shots because of that extra edge. We're talking shooting a target they can't even see through a wall, the floor, and another wall. And this was a mundane PC, not a mage or adept.

[Thanee]

I have never really had any problems with creating human characters using BP.

However, since SR4A makes raising Attributes so expensive, I can see Metahumans having an advantage in that regard, as they get the expensive increases for 'free'.

You can always use Karma Generation from Runner's Companion, if you want to make them pay more precisely for what they choose. It needs to be updated to SR4A, though (esp. the higher Attribute costs). Not sure, whether there is an FAQ around detailing what to change for that purpose.

With the increased Attribute costs, I would highly recommend not counting the Special Attributes against the spending limit for Attributes (just like in the BP system, and unlike the original SR4 Karma system). Otherwise you are really having problems creating characters that rely on those.

Bye
Thanee

[Saint Sithney]

1pt of Edge is not something to be crowing about.

The only way playing a Human has any benefit is if meta-humans are constantly getting social penalties, or if you're working in a role where attributes really aren't all that important like the offsite Hacker/rigger.

[Glyph]

I let humans spend 220 BPs.

I think that's a good idea.

The 200 BP cap does hurt humans, in that it limits what concepts can be played - if you want a street samurai who is also a face, or any other concept that requires decent physical and mental Attributes, you almost have to play a metahuman. Not to fit the concept, but because a human won't even be able to soft-max the Attributes that you want to. Currently, humans are limited to roles where you only need high physical stats, or only need high mental stats, or only need two or three high Attributes. Which, honestly, covers most character concepts. But for those it doesn't, it would be nice to be able to make a decent human build.

[pbangarth]

Maybe humans shouldn't be applicable to all roles. They are, after all, only one sub-species of the broader species. You wouldn't send a chihuahua to herd sheep.

[Omenowl]

As the 400 BP is for competent, but not world class shadowrunners I see no problem with the 200BPs. Later on in the game you will be spending karma to raise your attributes and skills so it should not be so much an issue. You aren't playing 10-20 year grizzeled veteran shadowrunners (age mid 30s to low 40s), but rather ages under 30 shadowrunners.

Humans really shine under the karma system compared to trolls and orks. I prefer the karma system myself so you can buy lots of low skills to be a well fleshed out character rather than the min maxing that is favored by the BP system.

[Shinobi Killfist]

My main issue with the 200 BP limit is the vast majority of it just gets you to average. 160 of those 200 points gets you straight 3's, so unless you want a dump stat you really only have 40 points to play with. You can still make a decent character for some ideas, but others have a hard time. In the end I think it motivates dump stats too much. This hits humans more since they do not have bonus stats, but it hits everyone.

[UmaroVI]

My main issue with the 200 BP limit is the vast majority of it just gets you to average. 160 of those 200 points gets you straight 3's, so unless you want a dump stat you really only have 40 points to play with. You can still make a decent character for some ideas, but others have a hard time. In the end I think it motivates dump stats too much. This hits humans more since they do not have bonus stats, but it hits everyone.

That's as much a problem with BP and Karma valuing things completely differently as anything else. Having, say, 5 in one stat and 1 in the other to start, then raising the 1 to a 3 with Karma will cost you 40 BP and 15 Karma. Having a 3 in both stats and raising one to a 5 will cost you 40 BP and 45 Karma. The first character gets to the same place much, much faster, so whether it was intentional or not the rules heavily encourage you to start out as specialized as possible and then diversify your abilities with Karma rather than start out diversified and then specialize with Karma. Metahumans really just enhance this problem.

[Marcus]

1 free point of Edge is a free 10 pts for being human, it also gives a increased edge cap. If you have 7 Edge you can probably spend edge on every important roll you make in a session. Also given that edge has so many other uses its not something to sneeze at.
The attribute thing is fair, but its not going to stop you from achieving massive die pools.

[Yerameyahu]

It's okay for humans to be slightly weaker in a couple of places (mostly just Body and Strength). And you *should* be using various human social mods, letting them be less distinctive, etc., if it's appropriate to your game.

The racial BP cost and the racial benefits could stand to be a little more balanced, but it's not the fault of the 200BP limit.

[Smokeskin]

As the 400 BP is for competent, but not world class shadowrunners I see no problem with the 200BPs. Later on in the game you will be spending karma to raise your attributes and skills so it should not be so much an issue. You aren't playing 10-20 year grizzeled veteran shadowrunners (age mid 30s to low 40s), but rather ages under 30 shadowrunners.

That's not the point. The point is that the other metahumans get at least 3 points for free because of their racial minimums, and STILL get to spend 200BPs on attribute. Racial imbalance is the problem.

[Neurosis]

Human chars with always seem to get a really bad statline. The 200 BP attribute cap just really shifts in favor of metahumans when they get at least 3 extra attribute points outside of that cap.

I let humans spend 220 BPs.

I personally feel that augmentation really levels the playing field here.

[pbangarth]

That's not the point. The point is that the other metahumans get at least 3 points for free because of their racial minimums, and STILL get to spend 200BPs on attribute. Racial imbalance is the problem.

Not exactly for 'free'. All but humans have a racial BP cost . Let's compare:

Human [0 BP] :: +1 EDG ==> effective gain 10 BP
Ork [20 BP] :: +3 BOD, +2 STR ==> effective gain 30 BP minus effect on CHA,LOG max
Dwarf [25 BP] :: +1 BOD, +2 STR, +1 WIL ==> effective gain 15 BP
Elf [30 BP] :: +1 AGI, +2 CHA ==> effective gain 0 BP
Troll [40 BP] :: +4 BOD, +4 STR ==> effective gain 40 BP minus effect on CHA (double), INT, LOG

Without taking the negative effects into account, humans are in the middle of the pack. With the negatives, they come out near the top.

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed, pbangarth. That also assumes that those points are where you want them; extra Strength doesn't really help you if your character never wanted it anyway, and the same goes (in reverse) for the lowered-maximum stats (because it's +15BP to offset that, and you're forever locked out of the highest scores). Reduced max Reaction? No thank you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sixgun_Sage]

Call me crazy but I have never been a fan of point caps, in games I run if you want to blow 350 points on attributes I'll let you, some people rely more heavilly on raw natural ability than others and it frees my players to come up with some truly interesting concepts to play with.

[Glyph]

The difference between the +1 Edge for a human and the other racial bonuses is that Edge is not one of the core Attributes. The metahuman bonuses all mean that they can effectively put in more than 200 points into core Attributes. Even elves, which come out 10 points behind a human, get to effectively put 230 points into Attributes.

Sure, the metaraces also have higher to go to be "average" for their metatype, but in actual practice, Attributes with bonuses are ones that you don't need to put as many points into. An ork, for example, is right at the sweet spot. A Body of 4 and Strength of 3 are good for most roles - maybe you will boost them a bit for more front-line combat types. But if I wanted to make the aforementioned street samurai who is also a face, the ork is better to do it with because I can have Body, Agility, and Reaction at 5, Strength at 3, and still have 110 points that I can put into mental Attributes. A human would only have 60, not enough to have a Charisma of 4 without having 2's in every other stat. With 20 more points to spend, he could get Intuition: 3, Logic: 2, and Willpower: 3.

Looking at it, those 20 points don't make humans unbalancing compared to other metatypes, or let you create an ubermensch (the example that I gave is only soft-maxed in his primary Attributes for his role, and above average in the Attribute for his secondary role, with Willpower that is only average). They merely make a few more concepts more viable.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree that Ork in SR4A (like Dwarf in SR3) has the best combination of useful freebies and minor penalties, plus no need for metahuman re-sizing. For many roles, you will go ahead and use those points. Still, points spent in Attributes are points not spent elsewhere… The 200BP limit is more like training wheels than balance.

[Kruger]

Not exactly for 'free'. All but humans have a racial BP cost . Let's compare:

He means "free" against the 200point camp, nto the 400 point cap. The attribute points metahumans get from their racial minimums are in addition to the 200 point cap as the metahuman cost doesn't come out of the attribute cap. So, in reality:

Effective BP for Attributes:

Humans: 200 total
Orks: 250 BP
Elves: 230 BP
Trolls: 280 BP
Dwarves:230 BP

What they are saying is that the humans aren't afforded the opportunity to equal out in attributes if they choose spend the points. It's a distinct change from the older systems where instead of having racial maximums, the characters actually had penalties. There's a distinct difference between the Troll having a -2 Charisma in 3e and just a racial maximum of 4 in 4e.

[Whipstitch]

I personally feel that augmentation really levels the playing field here.

Maybe for elves and dwarves. Body is as close to a universally useful attribute as it gets, and orks essentially get 3 Body for 20 BP. So even if you don't value Strength or their vision enhancement at all and intend to buy a point of Edge, an ork still matches up well with a human point for point. Toss in any strength spending and suddenly orks will typically have more BP laying around to spend on augmentations than a similar human build will. When it comes to building a generalist, orks are currently the true master race. Their high minimums and mild cap penalties mean that you can come out of chargen with a character that is at the very least average in every attribute, and still have points left over for augmentations.

Still, the situation is hardly grim. Shadowrun is a game that often rewards specialization, for one thing, and sometimes going all out and nabbing 6 or 7 Edge as a human or running a Restricted Gear Muscle Toner 4 Elf with 10 Agility can really pay off. It really depends on table environment as well. A single point difference in Charisma isn't a big deal on paper, but when dealing with a prejudiced bouncer you might suddenly be looking at a 3 point swing in favor of a human. That's a problem given that the fluff indicates that orks and trolls still face more suspicion and hostility in upscale areas than the other metatypes.

[Yerameyahu]

Right. You should really be giving some problems for orks (when appropriate). Ork players shouldn't feel like this is gunning for them: they chose Ork, and it's a great choice.

[Whipstitch]

I tend to spring it on ork faces precisely because they have the skills to overcome the situation. That way it's the occasional mild indignity but not really something that will spoil the run. The only time it was a real problem for a team was in a situation where I gave them some heads up that they were dealing with a real drekhole and probably shouldn't count on his support. I'm a big believer in firing warning shots, but if they ignore those, then well...

[Neurosis]

This seems like actually such a minor issue it's not even worth arguing about.

Like, if people do or do not want to give an extra 20 BP to the attribute cap for humans, that really seems like a fairly negligible difference. I think that the game works just fine with or without this change.

[pbangarth]

This seems like actually such a minor issue it's not even worth arguing about.

What? On Dumpshock??

[Neurosis]

I know right!