Armor on Cyberlimbs, What is the dilly-yo? Options

[Neurosis]

Does armor on cyberlimbs protect against attacks that don't specifically target that cyberlimb? If so, where does it say so?

I have always found this area of the rules kind of confusing. If for instance a Cyberarm only uses its Agility with tasks that specifically involve that arm, wouldn't it only use its Armor against attacks that target the arm? That makes sense to me, but I've seen talk on these forums that suggests otherwise.

[Tanegar]

Cyberlimb armor is averaged across all limbs (incuding cybertorso and cyberskull if applicable) and then added to worn armor to determine total armor. Called shots against a specific limb only use that limb's armor, I believe.

[Yerameyahu]

By RAW, it's not averaged, and it's not limited to specific attacks. It really is *that* much 'free' extra armor. Called shots are resolved as normal, which means your options are -4DP/+4DV, or -(Character's total armor)DP/Ignore armor.

Your GM may alter things with house rules.

[Stahlseele]

Under SR3, it's averaged.
Under SR4, it all stacks.
deal with it.

[Yerameyahu]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Oh Stahlseele, you're just like that guy on The Guild, hehehe.

[Stahlseele]

Who on the what now? @.@

[Yerameyahu]

He punctuates his sentences with 'Deal with it!' for no reason. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's a web TV show.

No offense meant, it just made me laugh when I read it.

[Stahlseele]

Ah, i guess this is one of those american TV references i just don't get ^^
I am not easily offended ^^

[Neurosis]

What.

It....stacks......does not computer...does not compute.

I didn't know if it even COUNTED. Now you're telling me it STACKS? Does it stack with logically impossible things like Bone Lacing and Dermal Plating too for maximum ridiculousness?

The rules (almost) definitely don't specify. Is this clarified in an FAQ somewhere?

[Yerameyahu]

Yup. Definitely stacks, definitely no encumbrance, and yes, even with things that would be 'replaced' by the limb (no hit locations, you see).

Do cyberhands and cyberfeet grant extra damage boxes to your character's Physical Condition Monitor?

Yes. Cyberhands and cyberfeet and other partial cyberlimbs are classified as cyberlimbs, and have all the benefits of such including extra damage boxes, an Unarmed Damage Value of (STR/2), customized cyberhands and cyberfeet, and the ability to take cyberlimb enhancements (p.344, SR4A). If you are using Augmentation, cyberhands and feet may also be redlined, and bulk modified, optimized, and modular versions.

Does cyberlimb armor for cyber half-limbs add its entire Rating to the character's Armor Rating in SR4A?

Yes. Armor enhancements to lower arm/lower leg cyberlimbs (and cyberhands/cyberfeet) apply their full Rating to the character's Armor Rating. Gamemasters may choose to only apply the partial cyberlimb's attributes, including armor, to tests directly involving said cyberlimb (p.343, SR4A).

The SR4A Changes Document erronously states that this was changed in SR4A, when in fact no such change was made.

Cyberlimb Armor has been clarified, it is intended to be cumula- tive with all types of armor (Armor on half-limbs only counts at
half-Rating.

These are specifically about half-limbs, but it's still clear. The GM-option to apply to 'direct tests' is a partial-limb rule, not a cyber-armor rule (and, of course, optional).

Armor enhancements installed on cyberlimbs are both Ballistic and Impact, and it is cumulative with all forms of worn armor.

Some people choose to interpret the Encumbrance rules as applying to total armor, instead of just worn armor: "If either of a character’s armor ratings exceeds his Body x 2, apply a –1 modifier to Agility and Reaction for every 2 points (or fraction thereof ) that his Body x 2 is exceeded."

AFAIK, this is a house rule; the RAW seems to clearly refer to worn armor in context. *shrug* I prefer it myself, but I can't argue that it's RAW. It's certainly been debated here before, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Remember that there's nothing wrong with house rules.

[Stahlseele]

What.

It....stacks......does not computer...does not computer.

I didn't know if it even COUNTED. Now you're telling me it STACKS? Does it stack with logically impossible things like Bone Lacing and Dermal Plating too for maximum ridiculousness?

The rules (almost) definitely don't specify. Is this clarified in an FAQ somewhere?

Repeat after me:
EVERYTHING GIVING ARMOR STACKS WITH EVERYTHING ELSE!
Deal with it.
Yes, Bonelacing and/or Bone Denisty stack with natural Dermal Plates, Bioware-Skin-Armor and Cyber-Limb-Armor, even when the complete Body has been replaced by Machine-Parts afterwards.
Deal with it.
And then comes worn Armor. Additionally.
Deal with it.

Yes, this allows people to do such silly things as BRICK the Troll that has 60 dice for amage Resistance.
As long as it's physical Trauma and not Magical or chemical or biological or something like that.

[Neurosis]

That is really dumb.

Thank goodness there is no one forcing me to follow those rules at my table.

Dermal Plates, Bioware-Skin-Armor

Those two aren't even possible to combine champ. : P

Likewise between Bone Lacing and Bone Density it has to be an or, not an and. Those can't be combined either.

[Stahlseele]

You forgot one word there.
NATURAL Dermal Plates.
Troll-Skin. Surge-Skin.
Only the advanced surge skin armor options differ.
SR3 had actually rules for this. They got scrapped in the transition to SR4 in the name of streamlining.
As for the Bone-Stuff:
That has never really been cleared up either, as far as i know.
And which Bonus counts in what case wasn't either i think . .

[Yerameyahu]

AFAIK, it's because there are no hit locations. Bone mods affect you as a whole, giving the bonus. Cyber-armor affects you as a whole, giving the bonus. Etc. There's no question of, 'did the bullet hit my cyberarm, so it only gets the cyber bonus?' The bullet hit 'you'. :/

Now, the easy fix is to use the rule-interpretation I mentioned: Encumbrance kicks in when your total armor exceeds Body*2, ignore sources. 'Armor' spell explicitly is an exception to this, which seems fine. You can also allow other exceptions, as you and your group prefer: Troll/SURGE dermal deposits, etc.

[Neurosis]

I thought it was for called shots. Cyberlimb armor. I thought it was just for called shots. : /

Okay, I don't have a reference for this and I am almost sure I don't have time to get one but I am 90% sure that canonical 4th Edition NPCs from published adventures DO NOT have their cyberlimb armor totaled this way.

As for the Bone-Stuff:
That has never really been cleared up either, as far as i know.
And which Bonus counts in what case wasn't either i think . .

If you are talking about Bone Lacing and Bone Density how they stack is irrelevant because they cannot be combined.

[Yerameyahu]

No, they're talking about stacking bone mods with cyberlimbs; the idea is, there's no bone inside the cyberlimb. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm of the opinion that stat blocks are totally untrustworthy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Neurosis]

Yes, there is no bone inside the cyberlimb. Hence attacks that target the cyberlimb or that just target 'you' should get either the bone bonus or the cyberlimb bonus, not both. Maybe whichever's higher. Maybe average them. But not BOTH.

Common sense, right?

isn't it a pity that common sense ain't RAW?

Ohhh...... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Mäx]

Common sense, right?

It doesn't exactly measure up as common sense if you unabstract an absract armor system for one specifig think.

[Yerameyahu]

It's easier if you think of it 'fairly': attacks targeting your foot get the armor bonus from your helmet, while attacks on your stomach get the armor bonus from your bone augmentations. Your armor jacket blocks bullets hitting your mouth, and your cyberarm resists bullets that hit your chest.

There is no hit location system. Called Shots do very specific things, unless the GM invents new ones. Adding +4DV or avoiding armor is the *abstract* no-location system of hitting weak spots.

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, everybody will shoot at eyes, mouth, nose and ears otherwise . .

[Yerameyahu]

That's okay, I got the Protective Covers on my eyes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Sigh.

You can, of course, work with the GM to do specific things: kneecap someone, etc. There are perfectly good roleplaying reasons for this, and the GM should work out a fair way to do it. But the shot will still be against their whole-body armor rating.

[KarmaInferno]

It helps if you stop thinking in terms of bodies and locations.

It's a modifier of your total armor rating.




-karma

[Stahlseele]

Yes, i know this.

[Saint Sithney]

Yes, there is no bone inside the cyberlimb. Hence attacks that target the cyberlimb or that just target 'you' should get either the bone bonus or the cyberlimb bonus, not both. Maybe whichever's higher. Maybe average them. But not BOTH.

Common sense, right?

Armor and such is all abstracted. It's about removing vulnerability. You've got an arm that's made with an inch thick coating of military-grade composite armor, then that's over 9% of the body which can completely shrug off small arms fire.
Something like coating your skeleton with metal might still matter in the fact that the cybertorso is just a shell so the metal rib and spine cage should still be doing about as much good as they ever could. I mean, you're not really expecting a bullet to tear through your leg, hit the bone and bounce off harmlessly. It's still tearing through you leg. Damage is done. So, the added protection of having vertebrae which won't shatter and ribs which won't crack still matters, just like the massive essence loss you took to acquire such benefits still matters.

Now, you might ask yourself why it is that game designers would let someone get these massive armor bonuses from cyber replacements, and to that I can only shake my head.

Robocop. It's because Robocop is fucking awesome.
If you make a cyberpunk game and you can't build Robocop in it, then you have been derelict.

[Yerameyahu]

That's another point, Saint Sithney, that Stahlseele alluded to: you pay full Essence and Nuyen for the Bone Lacing, so you get full benefit. In SR3, you paid reduced costs, but you reduced the benefit (IIRC) when factoring out cyberlimbs.