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> SL with Vision Magnification AND Weapon Foci, Rules Questions
theartthief
post Mar 8 2004, 04:20 AM
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Hello all,

Just two quick questions for someone who just picked up SR3 after being absent from SR for about 6 years. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

1. Can a character with a SL and cyber-eyes use both the SSLand vision mods? (Our old house rule was yes.) The way that I read SR3 the answer would be no. However, that doesn't make sense to me based on my experience with weapons IRL. I can understand that they don't stack for externally mounted scopes - you are, after all, looking down the barrel - but not for cyber-eyes as you are not looking down the barrel.

2. Is there any way an Adept can bond a weapon focus at chargen?

Thanks for the help....
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theartthief
post Mar 8 2004, 04:21 AM
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[Edit]: ... SL and vision mods?
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Nikoli
post Mar 8 2004, 04:32 AM
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It's a matter of balance. It's not fair to everyone else that a shooter has base 2 tn for all attacks at any range.
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Zazen
post Mar 8 2004, 04:34 AM
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1: No.
2: Not a normal adept. You can be an adept of the magicians way and do it, as detailed in MITS.
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AK404
post Mar 8 2004, 06:29 AM
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I'd have to agree with Nikoli. SL + Vision Mag = teh cheapness. On the other hand, SL + all other vision mods isn't that big of a deal.
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spotlite
post Mar 8 2004, 12:09 PM
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I can't see a problem with the SL and low light, thermo, etc, but with vision mag I can see how it wouldn't work, quite apart from any balance issues:

From what little experience I have with firearms (which is basically shotguns and nothing else cos I live in England), the merest 'wobble' from the gun in the direction you're aiming will surely translate into an exponentially greater 'wobble' in terms of where the bullet will hit. This would undoubtedly throw your smartlink completely off target, and you'd constantly be losing lock i.e. beneficial modifiers. The only way to counter this is to spend time aiming like a sniper does, keeping the barrel steady. At this point your smartlink would work ok, but you'd need a rule like 'if you have aimed for more than x actions smartlink modifiers may be applied'.

I think it was just easier to keep it simple!

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Entropy Kid
post Mar 8 2004, 12:37 PM
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I've always wondered how vision magnification was supposed to work without smartlinks (or anything that told you where the gun was pointed, like a lasersight). So what if the target looks closer, the weapon still isn't aimed. How can it be? Using the sights would get a huge, out-of-focus sight. I [house] ruled a +2TN after range adjustment, smartlinks and lasersights reducing that penalty. Scopes ("imaging systems") of course, don't have this penalty and are not compatible with smartlinks or lasersights (house rule).

[back on topic] Magician's Way adepts are described on pg. 22 of MitS and chargen foci bonding on pg. 54~55 of SR3.
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Luke Hardison
post Mar 8 2004, 01:32 PM
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I didn't like the way vision mag worked, so I changed it.
If you have vision mag without a SL system, you have binoculars anytime you want them. Great for surveillance and perception tests, useless in ranged combat except for mages. If you want the "scope" in your eyes, you need a SL with the system. That way, you get the normal moving crosshairs, then when you zoom in you get a big set of crosshairs to line up in your field of vision, working as a normal scope. Thus far no one has complained.
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TheScamp
post Mar 8 2004, 01:40 PM
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That's exactly how I prefer to run it. At magnification, the SL crosshair (or laser sight, dependant on distance to target) operates like the crosshair in a regular scope, telling you where the gun is pointed. Without it, the zoom gives no benefit at all, as you don't have the same easy access to the normal targeting method, namely the sights. While it doesn't change actual game mechanics, it gives (IMO) a nice, logical reason why you don't get the SL bonus with vision magnification.
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Firewall
post Mar 8 2004, 03:48 PM
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That is a good point, why would magnified vision reduce range? Using a scope, you have cross-hairs; hence the bonus.

I would rule that you can get the range bonus if you use an aiming device but not without. So SL's bonus is now that you do not have to sight down the barrel, not the normal TN modifier.

Mind you, our current SR GM allows magnification 3 to be used with thrown weapons. He is a more lenient GM than me. (I also punish people for lack of stealth, even in AD&D)
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ShadowPhoenix
post Mar 8 2004, 07:44 PM
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I like the home rule for the Smartlink/Vis Mag, I think it's much more realistic to require SL for Vis Mag to work in combat situations, also nicely explains away the lack of smartlink bonus.
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Fortune
post Mar 9 2004, 12:41 AM
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QUOTE (Firewall)
Mind you, our current SR GM allows magnification 3 to be used with thrown weapons.

Which is a canon ruling.
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mfb
post Mar 9 2004, 02:40 AM
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yeah. the base problem with smartlinks and vision mag isn't smartlinks--it's the way vision mag works (spotlite's explanation is true whether you're using a cybernetic doohickie or not). in real life, you can't just slap a scope on your weapon and expect to automatically shoot better at distant targets (well, you can expect...). using a scope takes time; in SR, the smart fix would be to require a user to take an aim action in order to gain the benefits of his vision mag. aiming, itself, should be faster or slower depending on the weapon you're using.

but all that's complicated, so it's simpler to just say SL and vision mag don't work together.
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kevyn668
post Mar 9 2004, 03:43 AM
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QUOTE
mfb Posted on Mar 9 2004, 02:40 AM
  yeah. the base problem with smartlinks and vision mag isn't smartlinks--it's the way vision mag works (spotlite's explanation is true whether you're using a cybernetic doohickie or not). in real life, you can't just slap a scope on your weapon and expect to automatically shoot better at distant targets (well, you can expect...). using a scope takes time; in SR, the smart fix would be to require a user to take an aim action in order to gain the benefits of his vision mag. aiming, itself, should be faster or slower depending on the weapon you're using.


Really?

[ignorant] I always figured if I took a few shots at a target that was 100 feet (31 ish meters) away and then did the same with a scope on my weapon, I could expect a better result. Of course, I also am near sighted and am assuming range conditions: no one shooting back at me, target not moving, low/no wind, etc...[/ignorant]

I don't mean to sound foolish, I've just never tried it out.

As for the SL/Mag thing: I think that the SL should have a built in rangefinder to some extent. If not, how can the thing tell if something is 1 meter away or 10 meters away? Would that sort of information be coded into the weapon by weapon class? I also think that the lack of a rangefinder is what would muck using a SL at ranges more than Short.

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BitBasher
post Mar 9 2004, 04:19 AM
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Using a scope is, under nearly all conditions, and especially if you are moving significantly slower than open sights. The higher the magnification of the scope the shorter it's field of view, and the harder it is to get the target in your sights without having to scan for it. Just the initial scan to find the target in your scope takes a second or 2 at least because of the drastically diminished field of view.

A scope on a pistol, firing offhand and without a rest is not a no brainer to use. My dad mounts a moderate magnification scope on his Thompson Contender chambered in .3006. Shooting a target at 100 yards with it is a chore without the weapon braced because even if you feel steady, when seeing the target through the scope you realize that you really aren't.
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