Good sets of spells for a starting grimoire, How many hats can a sorcerer wear? Options

[czernebog]

I'm a new player working through different options for a 400 BP mage. The group I'm in still hasn't totally nailed down what everyone in the party is really going to be good at, so I have been looking through the options available for spells and spirits. It looks like spirits are the truly flexible part of a mage's bag of tricks, but what about the spell list? At present, I have chosen Incompetent (Binding) as a negative quality. I realize this is a bit of a blow to the character's versatility, but I like the flavor of it, and I still have time to change my build choices if I decide I really can't stand not to be able to bind spirits.

I'm imagining covering a few bases with the character's ability to cast spells. His current spell list breaks down like this:

• a bit of combat (manabolt/stunbolt/powerbolt?)
• providing cover to teammates on the battlefield (physical/mana barrier, heal)
• shutting down or bypassing sticky situations (mob control, trid phantasm)
• helping the group get away with murder (silence/improved invisibility)
• enhancing personal mobility or just moving unfriendlies out of the way (levitate)

I don't really want to play a combat specialist, but I'd like to be useful both when being shot at and at other times. I think my reach is exceeding what it's really feasible for an uninitiated, soft-maxed spellcaster to try to do, though. A lot of those spells have significant drain.

In the advice I've seen on the Web, some spells are either indispensable or just a good idea because they Get Things Done, like manabolt, levitate, and heal. Outside of these core spells, it seems that it would be feasible to try to cover only a couple of the roles that I listed above, saving build points for other useful things like contacts and maybe (depending on spell selection) a sustaining focus.

What would your recommendations be for the roles and spells I listed? What other roles is it viable to build a spell list for? I'm trying to keep a couple of good tricks in the bag and otherwise have spells which will prove useful to boosting individual members of the party. Do you have a couple of small sets of spells which more or less cover a particular role (divination, subterfuge, combat, ...?).

A couple of other points and questions:

• I've purposely left out Increase Reflexes because my group, which is just learning the ropes, may not have anyone else with an initiative booster in the party. If it seems that everyone is going to have some kind of IP enhancer, then I'll definitely swap Increased Reflexes into the spell list.
• I don't see a cost for starting fetishes listed in SR4A or Street Magic. Do they come free at build time for each limited spell a character knows?

[Mooncrow]

OK, first off, I'll be honest; you're really hurting yourself by doing Incompetent (Binding). If you're looking to be flexible, you're correct that spirits are going to be your greatest tool, and not being able to bind is going to really, really limit that.

I would definitely recommend getting your maximum allowed amount of spells though, each spell increases flexibility by a lot, so it's not a very good place to save on BP. Shapechange is a very versatile spell that you probably should pick up in addition to your list. Personally, I like a more varied spell list, so I can plug into which ever role needs a bit of a boost. You've hit most of the good ones; Mana Barrier is pretty weak though, it would be my first choice to drop, followed by Mob Control.

Fetish prices are found on page 348 of SR4A, btw.

[Neurosis]

Meh, binding comes up so rarely in my campaign that Incompetent (Binding) would essentially be a free 5 BP for the caster PCs. Of course YMMV.

Here are the best ten all-purpose spells, ignoring flavor and concept and only paying attention to utility/efficiency:
Stunball (Crowd Control)
Manabolt or Stunbolt (not both) (Single Target Removal)
Powerbolt (Drone Removal)
Increase Initiative (or w/e it is called) (Add to Sustaining Focus)
Improved Invisibility (Infiltration)
Physical Mask (Infiltration)
Control Thoughts (Whatever you want to use it for.)
Heal (Duh.)
Levitate (Infiltration)
Your choice. You should pick at least one 'flavor' spell. I personally like Increase Body/Increase Reaction/Armor/Combat Sense.

[Mooncrow]

Meh, binding comes up so rarely in my campaign that Incompetent (Binding) would essentially be a free 5 BP for the caster PCs. Of course YMMV.

Well yes, when a GM goes out of their way to make summoning and binding substantially worse, I can see why it wouldn't come up much^^ Similar to Control Thoughts being fairly useless in the campaigns I run/play in, but under normal rules it is pretty darn good (dangerously so, even). The rest of the list look good, though I will pimp Shapechange again as a super versatile spell.

[Neurosis]

I do nothing to making summoning or binding worse, so I have no idea what you are talking about. : )

Players summon all the time, they just never bother to bind. They're too cheap!

[Mooncrow]

I do nothing to making summoning or binding worse, so I have no idea what you are talking about. : )

Players summon all the time, they just never bother to bind. They're too cheap!

Hrm, I could have sworn that you mentioned in another thread that you had spirits spend edge for every summoning and binding. Ah well, my mistake then. The material costs are so cheap for what you get though, it's crazy to me that players wouldn't use them.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Hrm, I could have sworn that you mentioned in another thread that you had spirits spend edge for every summoning and binding. Ah well, my mistake then. The material costs are so cheap for what you get though, it's crazy to me that players wouldn't use them.

It is cheap in some campaigns. If you follow mission pay scales it is farking expensive. And really I generally get all I need from summoning, binding is a nice ace in the hole but I don't find it generally useful for how much it costs.

[Neurosis]

Hrm, I could have sworn that you mentioned in another thread that you had spirits spend edge for every summoning and binding. Ah well, my mistake then. The material costs are so cheap for what you get though, it's crazy to me that players wouldn't use them.

That wasn't me. : )

I only have spirits use edge if they roll one or zero successes and/or if the mage is generally having too much of an easy time. I practically never have spirits "pre"-spend Edge, of course I've yet to have a player who was a dick to spirits.

Anyway, yes, my players are very cheap. But so far unbound spirits have worked well enough for them.

[Mäx]

Powerbolt (Drone Removal)

I would pick an indirect combat spell for this, unless i have a combat spell twink(or edge to spent every time) build i would never count on a direct combat spell for taking out drones.
I would go with lightning bolt, if that has too high drain code to handle then get a limited target version(-1 to drain code).

[Neurosis]

I don't understand.

Drones generally have very weak body.

Why would you not just go for Powerbolt rather than trying to beat their Response/Dodge/whatever?

[Neurosis]

I don't understand.

Drones generally have very weak body.

Why would you not just go for Powerbolt rather than trying to beat their Response/Dodge/whatever?

[Mäx]

I don't understand.

Drones generally have very weak body.

Why would you not just go for Powerbolt rather than trying to beat their Response/Dodge/whatever?

Becouse powerbolt needs 6(or more) successes to even beat the object resistance of that drone, you need on average 18 dice to beat that.
My combat mage build has that many, most generalist mages wont.
Magic 6 + spellcasting 6 + spec 2 + mentor bonus 2 + power focus 2 =18 dice get power focus 4 and you have 20 dice.

[Neurosis]

Object Resistance is clearly something I should be paying more attention to!

I knew killing drones with Power Bolt seemed too easy. : )

[Jaid]

Object Resistance is clearly something I should be paying more attention to!

I knew killing drones with Power Bolt seemed too easy. : )

kill drones with physical barrier. "oh look, the drone clipped a barrier that popped up right in front of it and flew off into the distance then blew up in a huge fireball of death. oh, and the physical barrier didn't survive either, but who cares since it was only a temporary magical construct anyways."

[CanRay]

I'd also suggest "Detect Individual". Very useful in Ritual Spellcasting.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Becouse powerbolt needs 6(or more) successes to even beat the object resistance of that drone, you need on average 18 dice to beat that.
My combat mage build has that many, most generalist mages wont.
Magic 6 + spellcasting 6 + spec 2 + mentor bonus 2 + power focus 2 =18 dice get power focus 4 and you have 20 dice.

Why 6? The normal table only goes to OR 4 (admittedly 4+, but it doesn't specify what has more than 4), or is that changed in 4A?

[Shinobi Killfist]

Why 6? The normal table only goes to OR 4 (admittedly 4+, but it doesn't specify what has more than 4), or is that changed in 4A?

Yes 4a changed it. Now the OR test is 5 for drones. So to get 1 net hit you need 6 hits.

[Neurosis]

You know, even with that Powerbolt is not BAD for killing drones.

Incidentally, that DOES mean that the drone does not roll Body to resist?

[Ascalaphus]

You know, even with that Powerbolt is not BAD for killing drones.

Incidentally, that DOES mean that the drone does not roll Body to resist?

Yes. It goes like this:

IF (Hits > OR) THEN
Damage = (Hits + Force) - OR
no damage resistance test

Is that good? Well, it works if you're a very potent spellcaster (Force 6+ and 6+ hits on spellcasting reliable).
Force, Minimum Damage (if you get 6+ hits on spellcasting), Maximum damage
1-5 -> 0, 0
6 -> 7, 7
7 -> 8, 9
8 -> 9, 11
9 -> 10, 13
10 -> 11, 15

I gotta say, I'm not overwhelmed.

[Neurosis]

Hmmm...I see what you mean.

[HeckfyEx]

In order to succeed completely on a Success Test, you must meet or exceed a gamemaster-determined threshold with your hits. SR4A, p.63.

[Whipstitch]

Honestly, I try not to worry too much about drones when selecting my precious initial starting spells since most options give you more sizzle than steak anyway. It sucks not to be able to just alpha strike drones with a nice meaty emergency nuke like you can unprepared mundanes, but well, you can't have everything and a nice summoning pool makes a pretty good consolation prize. Spirits are generally better at soaking damage than they are dishing out the hurt but Elemental Attack and Energy Aura does allow them to chip away at a Steel Lynx well enough to serve as at least a distraction.

[UmaroVI]

Where powerbolt is good is that it "normalizes" the defenses of drones and vehicles. You need 6 hits to not fizzle against a microdrone, but you also need 6 hits to not fizzle against a tank. Ideally, you'd want a solid indirect combat spell for nonliving targets with (body+armor/2) < 15, and powerbolt for anything bigger than that. Of course, this is assuming you can regularly get 6 hits, which if you're not combat-specialized you likely can't at chargen.

The Light and Sonic element indirect spells are quite good - light does physical vs. half impact and causes glare, sonic does stun vs body only (no armor) and nauseates if you do more boxes of stun than the target's willpower, which is amazing.

Shape Metal is a really nice spell, since Ferrocrete is a metal.

Mind Probe is great for getting information.

[Ascalaphus]

I've been particularly impressed by Ignite. It has some use in hurting people, but it's especially nice for burning away obstacles like blast doors. Everything can burn. It's very versatile.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I'm not a fan of ignite. Being a permanent spell it has a long ramp up time and how it works is up for GM interpretation, and it still has to beat the OR test.

The Ignite spell accelerates molecular motion in the target, causing it
to catch fire once the spell becomes permanent. The spellcaster must
achieve enough net hits to beat a threshold equal to the target’s Object
Resistance (p. 183). Once the target ignites, it burns normally until it
is consumed or extinguished.


So what is burn normally? Well burn normally is what the GM decides it is.