Void between "Bad" and "Good" magic traditions Options

[Dumori]

Actually i read the topic about the blood mages and the bounty that is set on a verified blood-mage. This brought back the question to me, where exactly you can draw the line between these two sides of the force. Practically everybody can learn the blood-magic rituals, no matter of his tradition and i admit that the benefits are good, but it is nothing they deserve to be hunted down more than every other shadowrunner. Ok, usually you kill people in self-defense or because you have a corresponding job, but death is death so why is there this extraorbitant bounty? Black mages do everything for their personal power, they deal with every kind of dark spirit to enhance their abilities and this entities also include e.g. draining of essence, karma and the like. Voodoo priests raise the dead and i haven´´t heard about a bounty on neither of these groups. Maybe i am too apathetic to see a problem here, but except that they kill people to reach their goals, i see no reason for that head-money.

The bonty on blood mages and toxics is due to EVIL its due to possible magically dangerous(to the users or the world) or hard to explane thus the draco foundation and its saves from the horrors line wants to research and understand the effect of this magic on people and the world.

[Dumori]

Sure you may be worried about a possession spirit with racial maximum stats, extra armor, and a AK97. But say a blood spirit gets a hold of some poor un-augmented sap and decides to drain him dry. At 6 essence, that force 6 spirit would elevate to a force 12. Now say a blood mage let the little guy loose in a place like Kwoloon City, or some other over populated Slum where a few missing people won't raise eyebrows and you start to see the issue. The spirits drains and kills 3 people, now you have a force 24 spirit to deal with.

LIES! They fixed bloodzilla the max force is now just x2 base.

[Marcus]

The thing is that their magic taints them to some degree, and as such the Draco Foundation (IIRC) has a bount out to study the effects of blood magic on the metahuman and the Astral around them.

It does not matter what intent the blood mage has, or what his MO is - the only thing that matters is that the Awakened is a blood mage.

I maybe wrong on this, but as I understood it, the "confirmed" blood mages were all wanted b/c they had done some seriously bad things. Many of those things were related to blood magic and some were not. Most were Big A related. I don't recall much mention of the other open users of Blood magic in the list (ie the IDF).
I'll go find my copy of his will and re-read it i guess.

[Dumori]

I maybe wrong on this, but as I understood it, the "confirmed" blood mages were all wanted b/c they had done some seriously bad things. Many of those things were related to blood magic and some were not. Most were Big A related. I don't recall much mention of the other open users of Blood magic in the list (ie the IDF).
I'll go find my copy of his will and re-read it i guess.

No it defiantly a research thing. The fact the some of Aztech bloodmages are trying to summon the horrors/enemy with it is an added bonus as they are also being targeted by those in the know any way.

[Neraph]

We could also get into a really fuzzy area of the mages actually believing what they're doing is right and good, if you want. You'd be surprised what people can convince themselves of. Hitler honestly believed what he was doing would be the absolute best thing for humanity, for example. I can imagine blood mages being similarly convinced of their own actions' correctness, if that makes sense.

[Randomonioum]

We could also get into a really fuzzy area of the mages actually believing what they're doing is right and good, if you want. You'd be surprised what people can convince themselves of. Hitler honestly believed what he was doing would be the absolute best thing for humanity, for example. I can imagine blood mages being similarly convinced of their own actions' correctness, if that makes sense.

The greater good and all that.

[Marcus]

We could also get into a really fuzzy area of the mages actually believing what they're doing is right and good, if you want. You'd be surprised what people can convince themselves of. Hitler honestly believed what he was doing would be the absolute best thing for humanity, for example. I can imagine blood mages being similarly convinced of their own actions' correctness, if that makes sense.

Thats for sure no one wakes up one morning and goes, oh heck ya, I'm gonna be evil, evil, evil, today. Moral justification is slippery slope, (see earthfirst). So far this thread seems mostly to be centered around blood mage i think there was some replies concerning toxics, but the line in SR morality usually comes in a nice palliate of grays. Its fairly easy to tell when something has a threat rating that it has gone to far, but what about the lesser evils? Those Dark magic users who summoned up there Dark Master (While throwing up their hard rock hand sign!), or perhaps that christian theurgy who decided that ALL witch all need to burn in fire!!! What about them I ask you?

[Neraph]

...or perhaps that christian theurgy who decided that ALL witch all need to burn in fire!!!

To be perfectly honest, the line you're referring to says nothing about fire. They just are supposed to die.

In fact, since it says "Suffer not a witch to live," you could theoretically have a christian (crazy Christian - he obviously doesn't read his book very well if he does this) go around capturing Awakened, Slab-ing them, and giving them medical OD's to kill them, emphasizing the "suffer not" part to mean "kill them as painlessly as possible."

Could make for a creepy 'run.

[Marcus]

To be perfectly honest, the line you're referring to says nothing about fire. They just are supposed to die.

In fact, since it says "Suffer not a witch to live," you could theoretically have a christian (crazy Christian - he obviously doesn't read his book very well if he does this) go around capturing Awakened, Slab-ing them, and giving them medical OD's to kill them, emphasizing the "suffer not" part to mean "kill them as painlessly as possible."

Could make for a creepy 'run.

lol, fair enough, mana spells are more effective anyway, Stupify!!! For our local game we were putting together a crazy wizkid gang rolling around on broomsticks with air elementals bound in them. I don't think they really qualify as evil, but more like 80's skateboard kids buzzing the mall, but their signature line was gonna be, "Potters! I hate these Guys." lol

[Shinobi Killfist]

Well Blood Magic isn't always evil in the murder innocents sense. Though personally I don't buy into paramedic blood mages, blood magic would not be taught to a person like that IMO. Only evil bastards would be taught it. But anyways it is inherently evil in the magical arena due to the obvious aura corruption and background count issues it creates. Sure any other tradition can have evil people in it, but the very act of using blood magic has a automatically evil effect that you can assence as a mage. You can see the evil, sense the wrongness of it, smell the corruption, however you want to describe assensing to the player.

[Dumori]

lol, fair enough, mana spells are more effective anyway, Stupify!!! For our local game we were putting together a crazy wizkid gang rolling around on broomsticks with air elementals bound in them. I don't think they really qualify as evil, but more like 80's skateboard kids buzzing the mall, but their signature line was gonna be, "Potters! I hate these Guys." lol

Man that's on retro fiction refrance it would likely be more obscure than say a gang now using clockwork orange slang.

[Marcus]

Man that's on retro fiction refrance it would likely be more obscure than say a gang now using clockwork orange slang.

We did discuss that point, and concluded that HP would probably end up being as classic as the Lord of the Rings, which is of course referenced in the game, so we decided it could very well fit, and we weren't concerned about copyright in our home game.

[Dumori]

We did discuss that point, and concluded that HP would probably end up being as classic as the Lord of the Rings, which is of course referenced in the game, so we decided it could very well fit, and we weren't concerned about copyright in our home game.

True I guess it is already a kids classic. Still would be "retro"/alternative in 207-

[Marcus]

True I guess it is already a kids classic. Still would be "retro"/alternative in 207-

Certainly probably having gone through a couple cycles of being retro by then.

[Neraph]

Hehe, I can see (most of) the original cast going through Leonization and Physical Vigor in order to change the Harry Potter movies from original, outdated media files to simsense/trideo.

They'd be in their 80-90s. Still theoretically alive.

[Dumori]

Hehe, I can see (most of) the original cast going through Leonization and Physical Vigor in order to change the Harry Potter movies from original, outdated media files to simsense/trideo.

They'd be in their 80-90s. Still theoretically alive.

OH God! I think they'd redo um all as the original actors wouldn't have the simsense traing ect.

[Mäx]

Actually i read the topic about the blood mages and the bounty that is set on a verified blood-mage. This brought back the question to me, where exactly you can draw the line between these two sides of the force. Practically everybody can learn the blood-magic rituals, no matter of his tradition and i admit that the benefits are good, but it is nothing they deserve to be hunted down more than every other shadowrunner. Ok, usually you kill people in self-defense or because you have a corresponding job, but death is death so why is there this extraorbitant bounty? Black mages do everything for their personal power, they deal with every kind of dark spirit to enhance their abilities and this entities also include e.g. draining of essence, karma and the like. Voodoo priests raise the dead and i haven´´t heard about a bounty on neither of these groups. Maybe i am too apathetic to see a problem here, but except that they kill people to reach their goals, i see no reason for that head-money.

You do know that the bounty is only for bringing in live blood mages from a specific list provided by the Foundation, to me that sounds much more like a recruiting an army of blood mages then head-money.

[Dumori]

It's not just from a list but if you bring some one not on the list they need to be proven a blood Mage in some way. Same goes for toxics.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

It's not just from a list but if you bring some one not on the list they need to be proven a blood Mage in some way. Same goes for toxics.

Draco Foundation employee: "What makes you think he is a blood mage?"
Shadowrunner: "He turned me into a newt!"
Draco Foundation employee: "A newt?"
Shadowrunner: [meekly after a long pause] ... "I got better."

[Dumori]

Draco Foundation employee: "What makes you think he is a blood mage?"
Shadowrunner: "He turned me into a newt!"
Draco Foundation employee: "A newt?"
Shadowrunner: [meekly after a long pause] ... "I got better."

Must have had a low body score to pull that on you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Garou]

Actually Shinobi's shifter HAS a low body score... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dumori]

Actually Shinobi's shifter HAS a low body score... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Now you just need an ecuse to turn them into a newt. Just some aquaitc infultration I guess.

[Hound]

was too lazy to read the whole thread, so I apologize if this has been mentioned before.

While all magicians have the potential to do great harm, and many magic traditions may be seen to encourage things that society finds repulsive (i.e. raising the dead) the rules say that all Blood magicians are certifiably insane. If you have a completely insane and sufficiently powerful voodoo/black magic magician you can bet he'll have a bounty on his head too.

Some quotes from street magic: pg 138, Playing the Twisted sidebar "While many shadowrunners might qualify as borderline sociopaths and psychotics, roleplaying a truly demented individual with Awakened power at his fingertips... "

pg 137, under Twisted Agendas "Given the madness that characterizes twisted magicians, (twisted seeming to include blood magic, toxic magic, and some others) the twisted paths are not normally available to player characters."


See you seem to be assuming that it is something about the things that blood magic lets you do that makes them put a bounty out. But in fact, I believe, it's more about the fact that all blood magicians (and toxic magicians) are completely insane and basically always a huge danger to the public.

As for that guy who mentioned a blood mage paramedic and a radiation mage nuclear physicist, I don't think that's possible based on the book saying that they'd be nuts. Or at least, if they were doing those jobs, they would be doing them in an evil way (i.e. paramedic secretly killing all of their patients, physicist allowing significant amounts of radiation to leak out and/or plotting a meltdown.)

[Dumori]

was too lazy to read the whole thread, so I apologize if this has been mentioned before.

While all magicians have the potential to do great harm, and many magic traditions may be seen to encourage things that society finds repulsive (i.e. raising the dead) the rules say that all Blood magicians are certifiably insane. If you have a completely insane and sufficiently powerful voodoo/black magic magician you can bet he'll have a bounty on his head too.

Some quotes from street magic: pg 138, Playing the Twisted sidebar "While many shadowrunners might qualify as borderline sociopaths and psychotics, roleplaying a truly demented individual with Awakened power at his fingertips... "

pg 137, under Twisted Agendas "Given the madness that characterizes twisted magicians, (twisted seeming to include blood magic, toxic magic, and some others) the twisted paths are not normally available to player characters."


See you seem to be assuming that it is something about the things that blood magic lets you do that makes them put a bounty out. But in fact, I believe, it's more about the fact that all blood magicians (and toxic magicians) are completely insane and basically always a huge danger to the public.

As for that guy who mentioned a blood mage paramedic and a radiation mage nuclear physicist, I don't think that's possible based on the book saying that they'd be nuts. Or at least, if they were doing those jobs, they would be doing them in an evil way (i.e. paramedic secretly killing all of their patients, physicist allowing significant amounts of radiation to leak out and/or plotting a meltdown.)

You don't have to be nut's to be a bloodmage just use blood magic. These metamagics and tradtions have effects on metahumans other life and the astral. Thats cannon the DF is after them for research and likely to put a hole in Aztechs plans to bring around the horrors faster. Seeing as IIRC the list they publish is almost exculively bloodmages linked to Azetech.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Actually Shinobi's shifter HAS a low body score... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My BOD is 4, thank you very much, although not incredibly high, it is not so low either (it just so happens I don't wear armor nor I have Mystical Armor adept power).