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> At what age is it ok to instal cyberware?, Is 13 too young for a datajack?
The Herald
post Oct 2 2010, 04:01 PM
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I'm playing a SR4 game as a KE officer in Seattle who happens to have a 12 year old daughter who is about to turn 13. She's getting a comm for her b-day, but originally was asking for a datajack. My character is very pro-cyberware and really has no problem with this (other than the fact she wants to buy her a beta grade datajack and that costs muchas dough, nothing but the best for her angel), but there are a few issues:

1.KE officer (mother) is an Ork and the child (biological) is a human. According to rules there's an 85% chance that the child will turn into a Ork sometime during puberty (or later or sooner). If she goblinizes (the mother and daughter are very aware this will happen, just a matter of time) would the datajack potentially worsen health problems connected to goblinization?

2.The child will be 13. Though I think the head stops growing in size around that age, I'm not completely sure.

3.Socially it's a little fuzzy when it is acceptable for children to have cyberware in middle class society.


I know much of this really depends on the GM, but I'm wanting some thoughts on the matter. We try to play with a sense of psychological realism. So these details matter. How have you handled cyberware in children in your games? have you dealt with this before?
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 2 2010, 04:03 PM
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Cyber is lame and passé. She only wants bio, or for this, trodes. (Teeny-bopper POV, 2070.)

Goblinization still happens? I thought they were now born orks. :/
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The Herald
post Oct 2 2010, 04:09 PM
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in the SR4 book under Ork it describes that if a human is born to an ork, theres a 95% chance of them becoming an ork (got the original % wrong).

That also raises another question. When is it ok to install bioware?

And trodes are lame.

This post has been edited by The Herald: Oct 2 2010, 04:10 PM
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 2 2010, 04:31 PM
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Trodes are more elegant, because *not* installing metal in your skull is inherently better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Again, from the POV of a non-shadowrunner (for a runner, it's just good sense).
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Summerstorm
post Oct 2 2010, 04:41 PM
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Well, i never read anything official on that... and nano-maintenance should work around many problems with growing too. So i would base it on what system it is.

Some "easy" ware and static systems should be fine, even in young age: Auto-injectors, something like that.

Heavy modifications should be expensive to continously correct every few months though: all Cyberlimbs, Cybereyes & Headware.

And there are those things which really shouldn't be implanted: Bone lacing, reflex booster /MbW, internal comlink etc.

I think bioware could be implanted a lot earlier (except those playing complete havok on biological functions like Suprathyroid gland - or any GLANDS)

And with genetech it is even the earlier - the better. Best in vitro to save cash.

I think the Datajack fallf between category 1 and 2... might be able to implant it early but has to checked on a lot and many corrections have to be made to intigrate it better into the growing complexity of the brain.
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CanRay
post Oct 2 2010, 04:45 PM
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Otaku had to have Datajacks back in the day...
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The Herald
post Oct 2 2010, 04:48 PM
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QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Oct 2 2010, 11:41 AM) *
And with genetech it is even the earlier - the better. Best in vitro to save cash.


interesting thought. too late for this kid though.
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Marcus
post Oct 2 2010, 05:05 PM
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Eh, there are stories discussing raising kids in the matrix. I doubt middle class america approves of open cyberware, I'd call it the same as kids getting tatoos today. It's not as big a deal, as they can now restore the essence lose if they later change their minds. But how happy are mom's when their daughter get the tramp stamp? Naturally it will be up to the individual families, I'm sure it will run the gauntlet like any other PTA issue.
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pbangarth
post Oct 2 2010, 05:37 PM
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There are lots of neurological and cognitive changes that happen in the brain through the teen years right up to about the age of 21. I suspect medical advice to mom would be to wait.
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Summerstorm
post Oct 2 2010, 05:43 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 2 2010, 06:31 PM) *
Trodes are more elegant, because *not* installing metal in your skull is inherently better.


I am totally on the other side on this. Having a datajack installed shows ambition and a sense of quality. Trodes will never be as good.

Also cyber is established, and i think still going strong, even as bioware gets hyped a lot. For example i think that if you are a wageslave who gets somehow promoted to a higher level, NOT taking a loan from the corp and enhancing oneself with an attention co-processor, internal comlink or other systems is a grave insult and will bar you from more advancement.

IF you have children AND disposable income, NOT to invest heavily into the "Future of the Corporation" by enhancing your children (best by genetech) is seen as selfish, too.

Getting your genius son (who already has like 3-4 genemods) a sleep regulator for his enrollment on corp-university would be a nice gift too (along with a car) in upper classes. It is all about "a BETTER FUTURE for your kids AND YOUR CORP".

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Nifft
post Oct 2 2010, 05:44 PM
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"Cyberware is for grown-ups" -> only children who wish to imitate adults get cyberware -> 105% of children want cyberware.

Unless human psychology will change over the next 60 years more than it has in the previous 6,000, children will want whatever augmentations they see on cool adults. What's cool? Whatever the corporations in control of your local media want to sell. So the cyber vs. bio vs. 'trodes debate really only matters if you don't watch corporate programming, otherwise they've already decided what you will want and are offering it for a reasonable price.

If cyberware is supposed to be maintained, like with regular visits to a doctor or biotech facility, then I see no problem with installing headware in a 13 year old. The head isn't going to grow all that much, the brain is pretty stable, and whatever changes do occur can be accommodated on your semi-annual maintenance visit.

Cheers, -- N
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 2 2010, 05:47 PM
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Ambition and quality? What on earth could you be basing that on? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The trend of medicine is toward less-invasive whenever possible, not more.

If the trodes perform the DNI function identically (and they do), they're the less-invasive and better option. For insane people (shadowrunners), there are situations where the inferior option is useful (the vaunted 'what if I'm captured?' defense), but that's not a normal, pop-cultural concern for a teenager.

Obviously, there are things that cyber does uniquely, but this isn't one of them.
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Summerstorm
post Oct 2 2010, 05:55 PM
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Trodes should have a penalty to use. (Why they don't i don't really know... forced balance?). But they are described as giving "not as clear signal". People who really liked their Simsense/BTL are all described as using a datajack.

I also guess that trodes are uncomfortable, maybe enduce migranes (After all you are using them 16 hours a day as your job as a data-analyst... hoping to get to new paygrade). And datajacks cost like what 500 nuyen standard grade. (Of course you can't be caught with that bad quality as a higher up). Much cheaper for YOU to buy that once as to always have to have some trodes... painstakingly get them on your head (messing up your hair). Sometimes they fall off in the middle of something important. BAH. Installed is the way to go.
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 2 2010, 05:57 PM
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Okay, you're absolutely right: if you *invent* a half-dozen ways trodes are worse, then they're worse. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) In the book, they're described as functioning 100% identically, and being comfortably (zero problems) worn as headbands, hats, etc.; and they never 'fall off'. Hell, nanopaste. I'm not sure what your point about 'cheaper' is, though: trodes cost 50¥. I guess you *could* buy more expensive versions (theoretically, ultra-luxury versions of anything in the book do exist).

Also, you're taking a datajack testimonial from BTL users? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Pardon me if I don't trust junkies to be the most refined.

Hehe. I do appreciate that you're not really talking about the rules, but speculating about the setting (just as I was earlier). However, it's only fair to assume that the rules exist in the setting, so things work as we're told they work, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Summerstorm
post Oct 2 2010, 06:06 PM
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Maybe... but the book also says a lot of other stuff that doesn't make sense with the rules. I will go with fluff over rules.

For example page 187 in unwired "Playback Gear" it says a lot of stuff, making sense (i guess).

Just because there is no -1 response or -1 die to matrix actions with trodes doesn't mean they are as good as hardwired. (And how could they?) they are clumsily projecting energy into your brain and try to read responses. It just can't work as good as having a neural network integrated into all the layers of thinking and experiencing.
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 2 2010, 06:09 PM
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I think that's exactly what it means: they're exactly as good. They're *elegantly* accessing your brain without the *need* to clumsily hardwire metal into your pristine neurons. See how it works both ways?

'Simfreaks' are obviously unreliable sources, the 2070 equivalent of those morons who swear the vacuum tubes, vinyl, and $100 gold Monster cables give better audio. I mean, really: "Any simfreak will tell you…", "The same simfreak will also tell you…"? Psh, I say!

What about this:
QUOTE
While those trode nets do still exist, Renraku’s DreamBand and Horizon’s E-piphany trodes have made trode-wearing stylish. These trodes use the latest technology to conceal all the electrodes and ultrasound emitters in a stylish band that hooks over the ears and wraps around the back of the head.
Also, screw fluff forever. … Just kidding, mostly. ;D
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Whipstitch
post Oct 2 2010, 06:15 PM
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I don't think it's that insane someone might want a datajack. Whether Yerameyahu likes it or not invasive surgery is a norm in Shadowrun and the vast majority of people don't get enough cyberware for essence worries to ever be an issue. And anyway, datajacks can be engraved, they're cheap, they can be used as a direct fibre optic link to a device rather than futzing around with wireless, they don't have to be applied or worn and most importantly of all, a lot of people already have them. They may be on their way out from a pure utility standpoint, but I would suspect that they still have a bit of a cultural cachet attached to them in some circles. Having a datajack simply is not viewed as a big deal anymore. A touch outdated and a slightly odd choice for a kid? Perhaps. But people stopped viewing the invasive surgery part as a big deal right around the same time they started having their eyeballs swapped out for that new neon model. I will say one thing though: the marketing departments must have really dropped the ball if a teen girl still wants a datajack over dietware or a clean metabolism. We have anorexic and bulemic girls all over the place now, even corporations can't cut out the middle man and just pump Kate Moss right into their DNI.
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The Herald
post Oct 2 2010, 06:15 PM
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There's also the added benefit that if you have body-ware installed, you can have it run through your datajack rather than having wireless signals slaved to the comm making it so that hackers have to have access to the DNI if they are going to hack body-ware. Course having bioware nullifies this problem, but bioware doesn't cover everything as cyberware does.

Like trodes or not, datajack is good regardless for DNI non hackable connections. Anyway, now I'm digressing.
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Marcus
post Oct 2 2010, 06:18 PM
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QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Oct 2 2010, 01:55 PM) *
Trodes should have a penalty to use. (Why they don't i don't really know... forced balance?). But they are described as giving "not as clear signal". People who really liked their Simsense/BTL are all described as using a datajack.

I also guess that trodes are uncomfortable, maybe enduce migranes (After all you are using them 16 hours a day as your job as a data-analyst... hoping to get to new paygrade). And datajacks cost like what 500 nuyen standard grade. (Of course you can't be caught with that bad quality as a higher up). Much cheaper for YOU to buy that once as to always have to have some trodes... painstakingly get them on your head (messing up your hair). Sometimes they fall off in the middle of something important. BAH. Installed is the way to go.


If there is anything 4A has done its open up more options for characters to go into various fields. It is counterproductive to put forward things that make that less possible. Integration and broadening of options is for the best, for a list of reasons, but at most basic level the ability to involve all the characters in ever portion of the world is really taking the game forward. Trodes are great example of this. They are better then Datajacks, And that is fine. Datajacks are now a fashion accessory, and that is cool. The majority of runner pc i have seen do spend a list a portion of their points in to "being cool".

I would strongly suggest that they implement some kind of genetic treatment that allows character to buy the 5 Pt Astral Perception Merit to continue this trend.
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Summerstorm
post Oct 2 2010, 06:18 PM
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Well, i guess we both have our firm ground and we both like our gameworld the way it is, and no one will change to the other side *g*. But i still liked discussing it, but I got no more on that.

In my game people will still have holes and chips in their heads, even years into the future (Until we can have it genecoded - like technomancer ability). And yes, they are researching it in my game.
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 2 2010, 06:21 PM
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I think you're a little over the top there, Whipstitch. I'm just discussing with you guys. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) We're being a little hyperbolic, and definitely subjective. It's certainly nothing personal.

Still, the question is for a really young kid, not a veteran criminal mercenary. Yes, a datajack possibly has some minor theoretical advantages (as I said earlier) for the criminal mercenary on the go. Incidentally, I shouldn't have to remind anyone that trodes have *exactly* the same wireless/wired options as a datajack: wireless, fiber, skinlink, etc.
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Whipstitch
post Oct 2 2010, 06:55 PM
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QUOTE (Augmentation)
It stands to reason that the accelerating pace and availability
of medical technologies are directly impacting our society,
culture, and daily lives. Though specific body mod trends come
and go with the shifting winds of pop culture, the fact is that
body mods themselves are here to stay. It’s no longer surprising
to see people with obvious cybernetics, biosculpting, nanotats, or
genemods on the street, not even the more extravagant varieties.
And why should it be, when we also have metahumans, mages, and
changelings walking the streets? Augmentation is now par for the
course in many job markets, from office execs and media snoops
to military types and construction workers. Skilled labor can now
be bought for the price of a set of skillwires and some software.
Environmental microadaptation allows people to live in areas once
off limits, from deep undersea to high orbit. Good looks are no
longer a qualification for getting into some social circles—they’re a
requirement.


I don't really think I'm being over the top. You get datajacks and stuff like dietware or sleep regulators implanted in the same bodyshops where you can get a boob job or a facelift and I highly doubt they spend much time convincing people that one type of sub 0.2 essence implant is more dangerous to get installed than another--Honestly, these things take an hour or two to get installed and then you take 3 stun. That's less suffering than you'll go through with most cosmods. They slap a patch on you and you go on your merry way. I'm not saying that people don't raise an eyebrow when some walking tank with a half inch of dermal plating comes waltzing in. That's a different ball of wax than getting your iris tinted and has some obvious implications as far as intent goes. But I do suspect that the people of the Sixth World think of a lot of this stuff more like say, a trip to the dentist than they think of it as scary invasive surgery. And while plenty of people don't like going to the dentist, a big portion of them still go anyway and the rest of us just don't really mind that much to begin with.
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 2 2010, 06:58 PM
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No, that's not what I meant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I meant you were being too serious, that's all.
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Whipstitch
post Oct 2 2010, 07:03 PM
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I tend to be serious when I disagree with people, yeah.
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 2 2010, 07:04 PM
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Too serious.

And I didn't say that people were scared of datajacks being invasive. I said that they're less modern and elegant than equivalent non-invasive options, to a very young girl.
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