At what age is it ok to instal cyberware?, Is 13 too young for a datajack? Options

[Whipstitch]

Nope. It gets across the intended effect.

[Yerameyahu]

And, as I pointed out, you're arguing against something I didn't say. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Much too serious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mayhem_2006]

There are lots of neurological and cognitive changes that happen in the brain through the teen years right up to about the age of 21. I suspect medical advice to mom would be to wait.

IF you can find a Doc that hasn't swallowed the corporations "buy a datajack ASAP, its totally safe" propaganda and expense account...

****

Which brings in another factor, of course.

Corporations probably market datajacks aggressively. Somebody buys your trodes, great. Next month, your competitor makes a nicer set, your client switches.

Now, sell them a datajack and its not so easy to switch. And you can be sure that unless they have new surgery for a completely new datajack from your competitor, then they will have to pay for your firmware update service to keep their datajack glitch free. Plus I bet plenty of companies have a "warranty not valid if our Datajack is plugged into our competitors product" style licence, hence ensuring that the average (non-runner) consumer with a datajack buys the rest of their gear from the same company - forever. There's probably firmware that brings up a warning about warranty invalidity and "this product may harm your datajack or neural structure" every time you plug in something made by the competition.

With that much money to be sucked out of locked-in consumers, you can bet the corporations aggressively market how useful Datajacks are for anyone who can afford them.

[Whipstitch]

And, as I pointed out, you're arguing against something I didn't say. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Much too serious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And you're arguing like I'm angry or something. You made the point that less invasive is inherently better. I'm inclined to agree with you from a purely practical standpoint, but I used to be a piercer and based on how many kids I've kicked out I'd say that a lot of your 13 year old pop culture obsessed kids don't really put much thought into practicality-- I've had a parent drag their kid in and accuse me of piercing them when in reality the idiot got some dumb ass friend to use a nail. And in Shadowrun we're talking about a setting in which such a thing as relatively casual surgery exists. Basically, what I'm saying here is that I don't think your earlier point really mattered.

[Yerameyahu]

Not angry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Just serious.

I think your position is perfectly valid; obviously, there's a lot of augmentation in the world. However, I still think that a 12 year old non-street/low-class girl is likely to participate in a 'modern/future' culture. A datajack is not a piercing, as well. So, yes, 'retro-clunky chic' is possible, but most people (esp. young girls) like tiny new cell phones with features, not 'old-school' bricks.

[Whipstitch]

An awful lot of young trends are based on old trends though. When you're young, everything is new. What matters is the messenger. That's why back in the late '90s there was a brief fad with some hipster kids were wearing hush puppies. If the right young person latches onto something it doesn't matter how old the subject is.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree. Both are solidly-precedented possibilities. I'm only saying that for *technology*, retro is rare in children. Retro-tech is more of a geeky adult's game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Even if you can't agree, we can agree that hipsters should all die. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Whipstitch]

Nah, a lot of my best friends are hipsters. They're huge dorks and I want to beat them up sometimes though. It's an odd relationship, but one of makes REALLY good coffee.

[Yerameyahu]

Hehe, fair enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KCKitsune]

Which brings in another factor, of course.

Corporations probably market datajacks aggressively. Somebody buys your trodes, great. Next month, your competitor makes a nicer set, your client switches.

Now, sell them a datajack and its not so easy to switch. And you can be sure that unless they have new surgery for a completely new datajack from your competitor, then they will have to pay for your firmware update service to keep their datajack glitch free. Plus I bet plenty of companies have a "warranty not valid if our Datajack is plugged into our competitors product" style licence, hence ensuring that the average (non-runner) consumer with a datajack buys the rest of their gear from the same company - forever. There's probably firmware that brings up a warning about warranty invalidity and "this product may harm your datajack or neural structure" every time you plug in something made by the competition.

With that much money to be sucked out of locked-in consumers, you can bet the corporations aggressively market how useful Datajacks are for anyone who can afford them.

I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't think that the corps have locked in everyone THAT badly, otherwise we would have heard about it in the fluff.

[Mayhem_2006]

I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't think that the corps have locked in everyone THAT badly, otherwise we would have heard about it in the fluff.

You reckon?

The only reason Microsoft allows us to use other browsers with their OS at all is because the governments force them to. You think the governments in 2070 are in any position to make any demands of Ares et al?

Its not an issue in game, because the rules don't differentiate between different brands of commgear that have the same level of performance. So it doesn't matter which brand of datajack you buy because it doesn't matter that you have to buy the rest of your gear from the same place (especially in the case of NPCs).

And it doesn't matter for runners, since they are generally in a position to not need the official firmware updates and could care less about clickwrap warranties - if their headware plays up they'll get a hardware specialist to fix it, not try to deal with Ares Customer Services "Please hold whilst we try to connect you..."

[The Herald]

So a few touched on bioware, but not much. Is it thought that bioware can be more acceptable for teenagers than cyberware?

[KarmaInferno]

Corporations probably market datajacks aggressively. Somebody buys your trodes, great. Next month, your competitor makes a nicer set, your client switches.

Now, sell them a datajack and its not so easy to switch. And you can be sure that unless they have new surgery for a completely new datajack from your competitor, then they will have to pay for your firmware update service to keep their datajack glitch free.

Bah, that's not marketing.

Marketing would want the customer with TRODES. Because you can sell them a new set of trodes every month, every time with some new designer color or fluff feature. AND that ongoing service contract for repairs & updates. They want you to buy a new set of trodes for every clothing outfit you own.

Datajacks are kinda harder to market that way.

Companies don't want you to buy one thing and then keep using it. They'd rather you bought the thing, and then buy the thing AGAIN over and over.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)




-k

[Mayhem_2006]

Bah, that's not marketing.

Marketing would want the customer with TRODES. Because you can sell them a new set of trodes every month, every time with some new designer color or fluff feature. AND that ongoing service contract for repairs & updates. They want you to buy a new set of trodes for every clothing outfit you own.

Datajacks are kinda harder to market that way.

Companies don't want you to buy one thing and then keep using it. They'd rather you bought the thing, and then buy the thing AGAIN over and over.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-k

Except, as I already mentioned, they might buy those trodes from a competitor.

Wheras if you can convince the consumer to have a datajack installed, and give them reasons to not use your competitors stuff with it, then you can ramp up the marketing to sell them a new *commlink* every month whilst being confident that they will continue to only buy the ones licenced to your company.

Kinda like the Xerox business model. They sell you the photocopier cheap, because they know you are then locked in to buying their overpriced toner for the next 10 years.

[KarmaInferno]

But competitor trodes wouldn't be compatible with the service contract. That you're locked into for ten years. But, you can get a new set of trodes every month! For a small fee of course. No, it's at a DISCOUNT, for a loyal customer! And you'll need to extend the service contract again of course, but you're with the company already anyhow, it's no big deal.

Really, the important bit IS the service contract.

Everything else is product to be sold with planned obsolescence so you can sell it over and over again.



-k

[Dumori]

Okay, you're absolutely right: if you *invent* a half-dozen ways trodes are worse, then they're worse. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) In the book, they're described as functioning 100% identically, and being comfortably (zero problems) worn as headbands, hats, etc.; and they never 'fall off'. Hell, nanopaste. I'm not sure what your point about 'cheaper' is, though: trodes cost 50¥. I guess you *could* buy more expensive versions (theoretically, ultra-luxury versions of anything in the book do exist).

Also, you're taking a datajack testimonial from BTL users? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Pardon me if I don't trust junkies to be the most refined.

Hehe. I do appreciate that you're not really talking about the rules, but speculating about the setting (just as I was earlier). However, it's only fair to assume that the rules exist in the setting, so things work as we're told they work, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hell i think you can get trodes in wrap around glasses.

[LurkerOutThere]

Ambition and quality? What on earth could you be basing that on? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The trend of medicine is toward less-invasive whenever possible, not more.

If the trodes perform the DNI function identically (and they do), they're the less-invasive and better option. For insane people (shadowrunners), there are situations where the inferior option is useful (the vaunted 'what if I'm captured?' defense), but that's not a normal, pop-cultural concern for a teenager.

Obviously, there are things that cyber does uniquely, but this isn't one of them.

Please stop passing your own biases off as A) Canon B) Having any correlation to what's represented in the setitng. Even allowing your option a datajack is outpatient surgery that is literally represented as having less medical complication then piercings have today.

Only munchkin's would really believe trodes are a better option and i will hate 4th edition forever for making them an equivalent option.

[Yerameyahu]

Sounds like you have *your* own biases. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm the one going by the actual SR4 book.

A datajack is certainly not 'literally' less complicated than a piercing, today or in 2070.

[Dumori]

Please stop passing your own biases off as A) Canon B) Having any correlation to what's represented in the setitng. Even allowing your option a datajack is outpatient surgery that is literally represented as having less medical complication then piercings have today.

Only munchkin's would really believe trodes are a better option and i will hate 4th edition forever for making them an equivalent option.

True cyber had some age behind it in2050 by 2072-3 its almost dated in areas. The implantechnology in easy as pie as I can only guess better nanotechnology and machines really help the surgery in being fast and low intensity. Hell some cyber has likely has growth built in to it. While in 2070 trodes can do what a jack can almost still cant directly slot chips with them. in 2060 datajack where a must for matix use really and with the matrix being a big big thing I don't see data jack not being desgined so deveoping brains can use them. Other wise no deck could have been younger than 21 before learning to deck.

[Yerameyahu]

That's a good point. After all, there are repair nanites, etc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Chip slots is a pretty dubious feature in 2070, too. Only BTL users need that, because everything else is just data whizzing around, right? ActiveSofts, KnowSofts, etc. don't need a chipjack these days. Even if they did, I'm not sure you couldn't easily connect that to the trodes.

Datachip: For those occasions when you want to transfer data by physical means—like bringing those stolen weapon specs to Mr. Johnson, when you wouldn’t trust a Matrix transfer—optical memory chips (OMCs) can hold hundreds of gigapulses of data in a small finger-sized chip, accessible by any electronic device.

[Dumori]

That's a good point. After all, there are repair nanites, etc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Chip slots is a pretty dubious feature in 2070, too. Only BTL users need that, because everything else is just data whizzing around, right? ActiveSofts, KnowSofts, etc. don't need a chipjack these days. Even if they did, I'm not sure you couldn't easily connect that to the trodes.

True it clip it to trode all you need is a sim module. But jacks have mulitipul conetions for wires and at least one chip slot still plus it's hard to lose all the data in there when in in your skull.

[Yerameyahu]

They definitely de-emphasized that aspect of the game in SR4. Datajacks don't even list how many slots, etc. any more, and there used to be a number of chip-related add-ons, right? Now, everything can slot chips, everything can use fiber, everything is wireless, and non-cyber versions of the same thing (smartlink, DNI, etc.) function *identically*, not worse. I'm not even sure BTLs have to be on chips; I don't think *anything* has to be on chips, ever.

You also mentioned the sim module: as far as I can tell, datajacks and trodes equally require a sim module, but they can also equally-easily incorporate one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The rules seem slightly contradictory, but it's not a big deal.

You're right, Dumori (and others), that datajacks have some use (and I said that before); after all, my whole point is that they're just as effective as trodes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Especially if you get them as capacity instead of Essence, they can be handy. But they're not better.

It's my personal opinion (please note disclaimer, hehe) that this is indicative of the general push away from invasive versions of basic electronics. The external versions are cheaper, no Essence, no surgery, and exactly as effective. Simple economics, right?

I like the idea of corps 'pushing' cyber because it literally gives them product lock-in; on the other hand, maybe they'd push non-cyber versions because they can break and be replaced. After all, the modern trend is toward 'disposable' products, whether it's computers, phones, iPods, whatever.

Yes, I loved the old 'true believer' way as much as anyone (the 'you have to work and sacrifice for it' system), but it's not SR4. I assumed this thread was about SR4. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dumori]

They definitely de-emphasized that aspect of the game in SR4. Datajacks don't even list how many slots, etc. any more, and there used to be a number of chip-related add-ons, right? Now, everything can slot chips, everything can use fiber, everything is wireless, and non-cyber versions of the same thing (smartlink, DNI, etc.) function *identically*, not worse. I'm not even sure BTLs have to be on chips; I don't think *anything* has to be on chips, ever.

It's my personal opinion (please note disclaimer, hehe) that this is indicative of the general push away from invasive versions of basic electronics. The external versions are cheaper, no Essence, no surgery, and exactly as effective. Simple economics, right?

Yes, I loved the old 'true believer' way as much as anyone (the 'you have to work and sacrifice for it' system), but it's not SR4. I assumed this thread was about SR4. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

BLT deff still come on chips that tend to have an inbuilt one shot sim module to keep you buying. Also data-jacks suffer on the how many slots issue due to the same reasons we dont have memory issues any more by RAW you can slot every chip on earth and eery wire and have room if your GM lets you. That was lost only in the less book keeping push.

[Yerameyahu]

Right, that's what I was thinking. It's part of the streamlining, but that reflects on game-reality, too. 'No chips' is more streamlined: Matrix delivery of all data.

I dunno. It just says they self-erase after one use, but that could easily be accomplished with existing software rules. The rules for hot-sim modification specifically mentions using it for BTLs, which means they wouldn't need their own sim module (which, theoretically, costs an extra 100¥; why waste the money, even if the disposable version was cheaper?).

In the old days, before the wireless technology could handle full simsense signals, BTL was primarily distributed in hardcopy chip format. By 2070, however, many BTL dealers operate exclusively online through mobile and highly-protected and secure servers, offering BTL exclusively as a direct simsense download.

[Dumori]

Right, that's what I was thinking. It's part of the streamlining, but that reflects on game-reality, too. 'No chips' is more streamlined: Matrix delivery of all data.

I dunno. It just says they self-erase after one use, but that could easily be accomplished with existing software rules. The rules for hot-sim modification specifically mentions using it for BTLs, which means they wouldn't need their own sim module (which, theoretically, costs an extra 100¥; why waste the money, even if the disposable version was cheaper?).

The BLT chips can be sloted with out a simmodule but downlaoded BLTs have to be run via a hot sim modula. Datajack still have a place even if its just for semi secure and "cheap" data storage and the runing of chips with out a com.