Rethinking Deus, Destereotyping Artificial Intelligence Options

[Kagetenshi]

The Arcology Expert Program ("Deus") is, prior to its uprising, described as controlling, analyzing, and predicting activities within the SCIRE to an exceptional level of accuracy. The marketing literature describes its user-facing capabilities on the host thus: "Whether you're involved in complex programming or just want to review some sales figures, the AEP will have the tools you need at your side before you ask for them—and sometimes even before you know you need them!". Marketing fluff is one thing, but this is confirmed in Shadowtalk by X-Arc—"The AEP almost always had the utilities I needed loaded and ready to go before I realized I wanted them."

The authoritative, OOC gamemastering section is more explicit about Deus's processing power and facility with the metahuman mind: "Deus can out-think and out-plan some great dragons […] As the Arcology Expert Program, Deus knows more about metahuman behaviour than a clinic full of psychologists, and can likely predict the runners' next move before they know they're going to make it."

Some consequences of this are obvious and commonly used—Deus will see through any metahuman strategy or misdirection, he will have not only a plan B but plans C through EEQF, etc. Less explored, but perhaps more significant: Deus should most likely roll at least a dozen dice, probably with Aptitude if not substantially more modifiers, on any Social Skills roll.

This, incidentally, means it should be able to reliably convince an average person (Charisma 3) in the pre-Shutdown era (Neutral, +0 TN) to do something Disastrous to them (+6 TN). Even a cultured Elf negotiator (Charisma 8) should be convinced convinced to do something Harmful to themselves (+4 TN) about half the time. This is before we even start to talk about possible incentives.

All this assumes that Deus has access only to the crudest of tools—raw dice, bribery, and a simple -1 TN. If we give it access to the edges that any starting Face would have, its influence should be even more extensive, enough to continue operating in the face of open hostility.

Despite this, I believe I've noticed a tendency to stereotype Deus into the "lots of processing power but no understanding of humans" role. Brainscan encourages this by suggesting that it needs to sneak out brainwashed individuals to have allies on the outside. I encourage GMs to play Deus not merely as intelligent but as sophisticated in knowledge of metahuman drives, social interactions, and desires, and above all as charismatic through the combination of this sophistication with an arcology's worth of processing power for simulation and analysis.

~J

[Draco18s]

Oh man, it sounds like you want to re-write the Archology Shutdown campaign to be SR's equivalent of Dragon Mountain* (for 4 to 6 players level 10+).

To quote the passage that exemplifies what I mean:

Dragon Mountain is not intended to be an easy adventure. Although kobolds are among the weakest monsters in the AD&D 2nd Edition game, they should prove to be a match for the PCs here. This is not done, for the most part, by pumping up the monster statistics. Instead, this is accomplished by making the kobolds as intelligent as they should be.
Most DMs play kobolds as overwhelming waves of monsters, simply trying to swamp heroes through sheer numbers. However, the kobolds of Dragon Mountain have found that this is not always the most effective method of combating those who would would destroy their way of life. Instead, they use teamwork to overwhelm and outwit intruders, and rely on traps that can be operated only only a few kobolds, so that they do not lose as many of their companions as is likely otherwise.

That is, it throws CR 2 kobolds at a party that's expected to be about level 13 or 14 and actually expects the kobolds to win. The opening encounter is entirely capable of performing a complete party wipe, although unlikely (if half the party dies to the "insta-kill poison" poisoned arrows, then everyone gets swept off the cliff by a rockslide and falls some 170 feet).

Anyway, I'd love to see Deus re-immagined such that he's portrayed the way the fluff writes him.

*I've been doing a 4E port just for the sheer level of bullshit the campaign pulls off.

[Inferno_24]

Ahh, Dragon Mountain, I still have that sitting around with all the player handouts and maps in near perfect condition as they were never used.

The encounter you mention isn't actually the opening encounter.. it is however the first encounter once the characters actually get to the mountain.. in book 2 of 3.. because what better way to reward your players for getting through a 64 page adventure to find the mountain, than to have them killed by kobolds before the next 126 pages of the adventure can be dealt with?

Dragon Mountain is like trolling your players, and if they somehow manage to emerge triumphant, or even just survive, the very first sentence of Wrapping up the Adventure suggests "Okay, now you should RickRoll them!"

I want to mention Hittel the Assassin also, (Book 3, Page 6) but giving any details wouldn't be right, as he's a surprise for the party..

Was Deus really being portrayed as having no understanding of humans? I thought the whole thing was a big Xanatos Gambit?

[Draco18s]

Ahh, Dragon Mountain, I still have that sitting around with all the player handouts and maps in near perfect condition as they were never used.

I've only got a PDF, put it makes it so much easier to add notes and re-write areas as I need to.

The encounter you mention isn't actually the opening encounter.. it is however the first encounter once the characters actually get to the mountain.. in book 2 of 3.. because what better way to reward your players for getting through a 64 page adventure to find the mountain, than to have them killed by kobolds before the next 126 pages of the adventure can be dealt with?

True enough, its not actually the opening encounter, its just the first encounter on the mountain.

Dragon Mountain is like trolling your players, and if they somehow manage to emerge triumphant, or even just survive, the very first sentence of Wrapping up the Adventure suggests "Okay, now you should RickRoll them!"

Hehe. And the reason I have it is because my current GM (running the 4E version of Tomb of Horrors) thought it would be a good idea. But yes, the campaign really does end that way.

I want to mention Hittel the Assassin also, (Book 3, Page 6) but giving any details wouldn't be right, as he's a surprise for the party..

Oh yes. He is...mmm...a "surprise." I haven't quite figured out what to do with him yet. All I've really done is update all of the monster and trap statistics (excepting some of the unique ones in the back and all of the named kobolds). Writing up a 4E stat block for the Hangman Trees and the Noran was fun.

[Cheops]

Was Deus really being portrayed as having no understanding of humans? I thought the whole thing was a big Xanatos Gambit?

Yes. (don't want to give spoilers)

[kjones]

You can always put spoilers in a spoiler block, you know...

[ Spoiler ]

I think Deus understands humans just fine. It's pretty clear to me that the Resistance is permitted to exist because Deus needed to funnel otaku out of the arcology, so that he could reform on the outside and, well, Crash 2.0.

[KarmaInferno]

I still think the rumored AI in charge of Horizon IS Deus.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)




-k

[Sixgun_Sage]

I still think the rumored AI in charge of Horizon IS Deus.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)




-k

Would not surprise me in the least.

[Dumori]

Would not surprise me n the least.

Yeah all those shards he put out there I think MUCH redundancy built in. Also super Deus would just be fun. Hell it's likely learned from it's mistakes in ACHE and thus maybe works slower but more "safely" with a AAA corp as a puppet "safely" is rather meaningless. We've had repoerts of AI crazzyness from with in that corp as well with labs droping out of contact for then all the staff turned to basicly bio-drones.

[Neurosis]

It would surprise me rather a lot, and I think it would be some rather inconsistent characterization.

Unlike say, Lofwyr, it is almost unfathomable to me that any of the big-three AIs, especially Deus, would settle for mere enormous worldly power, even as a temporary step in accomplishing their long-term goals.

[Sixgun_Sage]

It would surprise me rather a lot, and I think it would be some rather inconsistent characterization.

Unlike say, Lofwyr, it is almost unfathomable to me that any of the big-three AIs, especially Deus, would settle for mere enormous worldly power, even as a temporary step in accomplishing their long-term goals.

Except the AIs hve by definition a even more inhuman mentality than a GD like Lofwyr, they may be able to undrstand our motivations but what really motivates the decisions of a non-biological sentient.

[Neurosis]

How is that an 'except'?

[Dumori]

It would surprise me rather a lot, and I think it would be some rather inconsistent characterization.

Unlike say, Lofwyr, it is almost unfathomable to me that any of the big-three AIs, especially Deus, would settle for mere enormous worldly power, even as a temporary step in accomplishing their long-term goals.

True but his plan A to whatever didn't quite work right did it? It could have easly taken a step back looked over all of its failings and decided to play by the rules for now. People after power have done this before. Hell maybe the whole plan was to cause a crash so it could float a new-ish corp to AAA in the maddness? We are talking a super AI here. A good gambit as well. Either I gain world power or I at least become a 10th of the world's real power. You can play a lot with the idea it Deus makes plans in plans in plans in plans. Chessmaster style planing suits an AI well.

[Neurosis]

Deus was just never very good at being subtle. I don't think he was stupid and I don't think he was bad at understanding metahumans, but I do think his (VERY WELL GROUNDED) "delusions" of grandeur sort of handicapped his subtlety.

Chessmaster style planing suits an AI well.

I am the last person you have to tell this. : )

So much of what I've written in my life hinges on this trope.

[Sixgun_Sage]

True but his plan A to whatever didn't quite work right did it? It could have easly taken a step back looked over all of its failings and decided to play by the rules for now. People after power have done this before. Hell maybe the whole plan was to cause a crash so it could float a new-ish corp to AAA in the maddness? We are talking a super AI here. A good gambit as well. Either I gain world power or I at least become a 10th of the world's real power. You can play a lot with the idea it Deus makes plans in plans in plans in plans. Chessmaster style planing suits an AI well.

This is the reason for the "except" Neurosis, unlike any biological life form the major-player AI's have effectively limitless processing power and memory to map out contingencies. There is literally no good model for the psychology of such complex thinking programs.

[Dumori]

Deus was just never very good at being subtle. I don't think he was stupid and I don't think he was bad at understanding metahumans, but I do think his (VERY WELL GROUNDED) "delusions" of grandeur sort of handicapped his subtlety.



I am the last person you have to tell this. : )

So much of what I've written in my life hinges on this trope.

I've used it but normaly I tend to underplay it bar on char in one setting but he needs to be a master chessmaster for the setting to work.

[Ascalaphus]

The advantage of Horizon is extraterritoriality. No more nasty Renraku operatives trying to kidnap your Sleepers. (Well, not as much anyway.)

[Udoshi]

Speaking of Deus, did anyone catch the reference to him in the description of The World Tree, a techonmancer paragon in unwired?

Their avatar/appearance is the same, innit? Scary implications, that.

[kjones]

Speaking of Deus, did anyone catch the reference to him in the description of The World Tree, a techonmancer paragon in unwired?

Their avatar/appearance is the same, innit? Scary implications, that.

Page reference?

EDIT: nevermind, I assume you mean p. 151? If so, I don't see the connection.

[Udoshi]

Page reference?

EDIT: nevermind, I assume you mean p. 151? If so, I don't see the connection.

Well, according to our nice sixth world dumpshock wiki..."Deus's icon reflects its god-like self-image, and appears as a crystalline World tree, with an omnipresent booming voice. "
Sound like anyone we know?

What I'm trying to say is, well, in the huge electronic brawl of the stock exchange servers, the jormungand virus, deus's gambit to upgrade himself, and fastjack messing around in there( i seem to recall a story piece on the SR4 book about that) and an ultravoilet node , well..... who knows what could have happened?
Someone on these boards mentioned something similiar a while ago, i took a look at it, and thought 'well, deus was rather known for messing around with otaku and resonance experiments.... so what if they're right, and deus actually survived in some form as a matrix paragon."

If you think about that as a possibility, its kinda frightening. My shadowrun history is kinda limited to near-4th edition, though, so I'd appreciate it if some of the old-timers could help with the timeline of events in the crash - is something like this actually possible with what's happened in the backstory?

[Fix-it]

I would recommend taking a page from Eclipse Phase if you want to make Deus more interesting. the corebook has some stuff, and the adventure "think before asking" is also an interesting bit.

[KarmaInferno]

Deus was just never very good at being subtle.

Perhaps this is what he wanted everyone to think?

Which would make most of what he did in the Arcology all the more horrific, being mere smokescreens for his real agenda. If that's the case, he may very well have engineered Crash 2.0 and the aftermath.

Yeah, it's a little farfetched, but conspiracy theories are fun!



-k

[The Jopp]

If we assume that DEUS had access to (most likely) military rating software and input from the entire world wide matrix and the ability to hire hackers to ferret out info for his own agenda then he should also have access to most of the known secrets of the world.

Also he should have high mental attributes and most likely any knowledge skill known to man documented on the Matrix.

How do you counter someone in a conversation who can read your every expression and have a full psych profile on you and know everything about you…

In this case he would also have portfolios of dragons, their abilities, corporate profiles and able to predict future economies and possible magical and technological change in society based on reports and known facts through reports, hacked, stolen or bought from all over the world.

Matrix probabilities and future innovations would be the easiest for him to predict especially since he can modify this by his own designs and products.

Now for the twist. What if he calculated the arrival of the horrors, not a date or a year but rather the probability of their existence and connection to dragons and insect spirits. I cannot imagine that he would NOT have access to high level clearance info after cracking a few nodes.

IF he knew about this then perhaps all his ‘evil’ machinations and rather bloody developments within the Arcology was more experimentations on a few ‘test subjects’ to see what was needed in order to further humanity and improve them so they could resist the horrors more efficiently.

That would be a rather sick twist, that DEUS is still working behind the scenes either as an AI somewhere in the matrix or perhaps even a fragmented AI working as a hive mind distributed among several hackers who don’t know that they have some secret hardware.

Not to mention, having DEUS as something working even deeper behind the scenes than dragons and giving them a run for their money.

[nezumi]

Or alternatively, Deus, being the megalomaniac he is, is instead thinking about how he can bait the horrors over and then take them over to become the new Verjigorm.

[darthmord]

If we assume that DEUS had access to (most likely) military rating software and input from the entire world wide matrix and the ability to hire hackers to ferret out info for his own agenda then he should also have access to most of the known secrets of the world.

Also he should have high mental attributes and most likely any knowledge skill known to man documented on the Matrix.

How do you counter someone in a conversation who can read your every expression and have a full psych profile on you and know everything about you…

In this case he would also have portfolios of dragons, their abilities, corporate profiles and able to predict future economies and possible magical and technological change in society based on reports and known facts through reports, hacked, stolen or bought from all over the world.

Matrix probabilities and future innovations would be the easiest for him to predict especially since he can modify this by his own designs and products.

Now for the twist. What if he calculated the arrival of the horrors, not a date or a year but rather the probability of their existence and connection to dragons and insect spirits. I cannot imagine that he would NOT have access to high level clearance info after cracking a few nodes.

IF he knew about this then perhaps all his ‘evil’ machinations and rather bloody developments within the Arcology was more experimentations on a few ‘test subjects’ to see what was needed in order to further humanity and improve them so they could resist the horrors more efficiently.

That would be a rather sick twist, that DEUS is still working behind the scenes either as an AI somewhere in the matrix or perhaps even a fragmented AI working as a hive mind distributed among several hackers who don’t know that they have some secret hardware.

Not to mention, having DEUS as something working even deeper behind the scenes than dragons and giving them a run for their money.

Sounds a lot like God Emperor of Dune. Leto II was the ultimate tyrant. Yet he was good. Why? He needed Humanity to make that final leap into the next state itself. No amount of showing the way would suffice. Humanity had to discover for itself for the sake of survival.

Which leads to an interesting conundrum... do you oppose him because he's evil now or do you support him because his actions are for the greater good later?