IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Starting with an Ally Spirit (karma build)
Tymire
post Oct 4 2010, 04:24 PM
Post #1


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 80
Joined: 19-January 09
Member No.: 16,793



Was thinking of biting the bullet (karma wise) and starting the game with an ally spirit starting (say F4 costing 60 or so karma). If just from the saving that much karma to the time it would take crafting the formula.

So is this actually a legal option?

Is it a good idea?

Would it be problematic to the GM?

What powers/skills would you guys recommend?

Most folks I have played with don't typically have them, so not too sure if it's wise, if the cost is too much, or if they are just broken.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Udoshi
post Oct 4 2010, 05:10 PM
Post #2


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,782
Joined: 28-August 09
Member No.: 17,566



Q:Legality:
Only if your GM allows initiation in character generation. If yes, then you can go ahead and grab the ally spirit metamagic

Good idea:
Yes. Ally spirits rule. With a high rating ally spirit, you can just kind of replace a power focus with one, due to assist spellcasting.

Problematic for the gm?
Depends on who's playing it. You really need to ask who's in control of it. I mean, you can summon it up at a whim, and its auto-magically loyal to you. On one hand, it may be like giving a player another character, on the other, no gm wants to be forced into gmpcing a spirit all the time, especially in combat. This is something you really need to discuss with your GM.

Powers?
Dunno. Away from books. Natural weapon is great, since it uses unarmed. Guard is always useful.

Given the cost of raising ally spirits in play, I'd consider biting the bullet's brothers too, and just getting your ally at force 6. If anything, great form it during play.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neraph
post Oct 4 2010, 05:13 PM
Post #3


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,542
Joined: 30-September 08
From: D/FW Megaplex
Member No.: 16,387



Here are some ideas.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tymire
post Oct 4 2010, 09:45 PM
Post #4


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 80
Joined: 19-January 09
Member No.: 16,793



Umm yea know all about that thread and find it quite humorous. However, it's something I would never consider doing in anything but a pure pink mohawk game.

The GM is new to the system, and the goal isn't to come up with Superman even if it is allowable by RAW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)





Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neraph
post Oct 6 2010, 06:02 AM
Post #5


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,542
Joined: 30-September 08
From: D/FW Megaplex
Member No.: 16,387



QUOTE (Tymire @ Oct 4 2010, 04:45 PM) *
...humorous...

... What? That was a mechanical thread with various applications, not just the Lich King build. There's an addendum about using spirits to replicate intelligent items that I think you may want to look at. I mention using it for Bloodmourne, but there are plenty of other uses.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
otakusensei
post Oct 6 2010, 02:26 PM
Post #6


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 695
Joined: 2-January 07
From: He has here a minute ago...
Member No.: 10,514



Ally spirits are great, and if you want to be low key with them they basically function like a normal spirit that has unlimited services. If you want to really leverage some of the options that make them unique and worth the cost, then the post Neraph linked has some great jumping off points.

If you're going to start play with an ally it's a good idea to build it into your character's back story. If you can get a copy of Burning Bright by Tom Dowd, the relationship between Kyle Teller and Seeks-the-Moon is perfect example of what can become an interesting roleplaying experience coupled with a solid mechanical advantage.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tymire
post Oct 6 2010, 04:00 PM
Post #7


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 80
Joined: 19-January 09
Member No.: 16,793



Actually that book (and others with the same characters) is why I was considering it. Have not really looked at doing this before as this will be the first time that; they have allowed karma gen, it isnít a 1-3 shot game, a missions game, and also am creating a mage (online games are hard to find and never seem to last). Definitely am on ripping off the motorcycle form from books as it is just too awesome. I am also planning on giving it 4-5 different forms, as it will enjoy being materialized and being part of the world.

The DM does believe in equivalent response, so keeping as low key and subtle as much as possible is a good idea from a survivability standpoint in addition to being offered more profitable jobs.

Really do like the idea of using spirits for magic items, however not going to it to an ally spirit, as I doubt they really enjoy it unless you feed them. And as mentioned if you do feed them see the above statement =P. Yes you would have to get caught but stillÖ..

From a mechanical standpoint even the basic things an ally spirits can give you seems to be worth the karma, so wasnít worried about wasting anything. Just mostly wondering what pitfalls people have ran into them from a DMing and playing standpoint.

This is what I am thinking so far:

Forms: Human (say a 13 yr old girl?), cat, robin, motorcycle (or the equivalent of a VW bug, lol)

Powers: Movement, Concealment, Astral Masking, Guard, Influence (maybe fear)

Skills: Spellcasting, Counterspelling, Infiltration (as it works on astral also), and Con if I can afford it.

Spells: Heal

Instead of having the ally spirit being a reflection of the mageís subconscious (like Seeks-the-Moon and Tylor), am thinking of having the spirit created as a replacement for the dead daughter of the mage.

So as can see going for more of the white or red mage support type than a black mage blaster. Also thinking that having backup escape option that you donít need to give orders too will be worth itís weight in gold. Tempted to see if the DM would let me play it as a free spirit if the mage's ever gets filled with holes (if it gets along with the rest of the party anyway).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Makki
post Oct 6 2010, 04:15 PM
Post #8


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,373
Joined: 14-January 10
From: Stuttgart, Germany
Member No.: 18,036



add ritual Spellcasting, so you're already a group of two!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
otakusensei
post Oct 6 2010, 08:08 PM
Post #9


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 695
Joined: 2-January 07
From: He has here a minute ago...
Member No.: 10,514



Having your ally go free can be a huge boost in functionality, but from a roleplaying stand point it drastically changes the relationship. The spirit is no longer tethered to your mage and in many cases starts to become someone with their own desires and understanding of the world, one sometimes drastically different based on nature alone. In your case having the girl appear to grow three or four years older in the process and change her personal style would be appropriate. Done right it can be very interesting, but it's important to recognize that a change has occurred both in roleplaying and mechanics. At the very least you're now asking for help rather than telling your spirit to use a power.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jakephillips
post Oct 8 2010, 01:25 AM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 172
Joined: 26-July 10
Member No.: 18,852



I like it
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Laodicea
post Oct 8 2010, 01:22 PM
Post #11


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 558
Joined: 23-June 10
Member No.: 18,749



Pretty much what has been said so far: if your GM allows initiation at chargen, you can probably do it.

It's way way way overpowered. Your ally spirit will far outstrip you, and possibly the rest of your team. If you were to create a Free Spirit Player Character, it would look pathetically weak next to the ally spirit that you can start with at chargen.

Basically, unless its an extremely high-powered game, I wouldn't recommend to your GM to allow it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
otakusensei
post Oct 8 2010, 02:06 PM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 695
Joined: 2-January 07
From: He has here a minute ago...
Member No.: 10,514



QUOTE (Laodicea @ Oct 8 2010, 09:22 AM) *
Pretty much what has been said so far: if your GM allows initiation at chargen, you can probably do it.

It's way way way overpowered. Your ally spirit will far outstrip you, and possibly the rest of your team. If you were to create a Free Spirit Player Character, it would look pathetically weak next to the ally spirit that you can start with at chargen.

Basically, unless its an extremely high-powered game, I wouldn't recommend to your GM to allow it.

Kept to force 3-4 the ally isn't that powerful. Even Concealment at that level is a chameleon suit that works on more than visual sensors. Movement is still pretty gross, but the spirit won't be able to move that much. A motorcycle maybe, but not a car so if the mage bails he leaves the team.

The rules are written in such a way that if you really want to wreck the game you can, it's not hard. If players work with the GM to make responsible characters and the GM holds things together with a strong narrative that the players buy into, there shouldn't be any trouble. Recognizing the game's baseline of 3-4 being average and 6 being world class and building your character to those numbers, rather than trying to get the biggest dice pool, means that things run smoothly. Not that that always happens, or should, but if everyone goes in with that understanding it makes it easier to reach a balance that doesn't involve the GM needing to throw the Metroplex guard at the players everytime time they go out for drinks.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Laodicea
post Oct 8 2010, 02:25 PM
Post #13


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 558
Joined: 23-June 10
Member No.: 18,749



It's just so CHEAP to make an incredibly powerful ally spirit at chargen if you're allowing that kind of thing. Sink 80 karma into him and it's the best 80 you ever spent. If you have to earn that much in-game, it's an insurmountable task and you deserve to be richly rewarded for it. At chargen it's just easy and cheap and OP.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neraph
post Oct 8 2010, 03:13 PM
Post #14


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,542
Joined: 30-September 08
From: D/FW Megaplex
Member No.: 16,387



Sure, that'd be a F10 spirit, but what powers/skills does it have? Little to none edgewise, making a simple F6 Air/Fire spirit much more versatile. I mean, that F10 spirit would replace the group's Troll tank, but that's about what it'd be good for. You can't give him a gun. You couldn't ask for him to use Movement or Conceal or Guard. You wouldn't be able to have him provide additional Counterspelling or help out with some crowd-control spells.

Now assuming you're using that 80 karma to have a F4 spirit with additional powers, skills, spells, and forms - now that's something else. And it's still F4. One Mana Static/Backround Count away from being disrupted.

Seriously, magic is soooo easy to counter. It's like complaining that machine pistols are broken.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tymire
post Oct 8 2010, 03:24 PM
Post #15


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 80
Joined: 19-January 09
Member No.: 16,793



QUOTE
The rules are written in such a way that if you really want to wreck the game you can, it's not hard. If players work with the GM to make responsible characters and the GM holds things together with a strong narrative that the players buy into, there shouldn't be any trouble. Recognizing the game's baseline of 3-4 being average and 6 being world class and building your character to those numbers, rather than trying to get the biggest dice pool, means that things run smoothly. Not that that always happens, or should, but if everyone goes in with that understanding it makes it easier to reach a balance that doesn't involve the GM needing to throw the Metroplex guard at the players everytime time they go out for drinks


QFT -- Main thing is that everyone in the group has to be on the same page.

Fyi, wasn't planning on letting it go free. My comment on the "if the mage got filled with holes" meant him turning into hamburger..... So the relationship between the two wouldnít be an issue compared to how it likes the rest of the team.

Edit:
Unless I misread something the max force you can go for an ally spirit is your magic attribute. It's not like summoning normal spirits.

Laodicea: Your F10 spirit probably wouldn't like being bound to what it would consider a puppy, is probably much more intellegent than you, so can probably twist what ever you order it to do to something completely opposite... Good Luck with that =P

Neraph: Ally spirits get 1 power per force, so a force 10 spirit would have quite a few powers.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Laodicea
post Oct 8 2010, 03:35 PM
Post #16


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 558
Joined: 23-June 10
Member No.: 18,749



QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 8 2010, 09:13 AM) *
Sure, that'd be a F10 spirit, but what powers/skills does it have? Little to none edgewise, making a simple F6 Air/Fire spirit much more versatile. I mean, that F10 spirit would replace the group's Troll tank, but that's about what it'd be good for. You can't give him a gun. You couldn't ask for him to use Movement or Conceal or Guard. You wouldn't be able to have him provide additional Counterspelling or help out with some crowd-control spells.

Now assuming you're using that 80 karma to have a F4 spirit with additional powers, skills, spells, and forms - now that's something else. And it's still F4. One Mana Static/Backround Count away from being disrupted.

Seriously, magic is soooo easy to counter. It's like complaining that machine pistols are broken.



So make it a F6 spirit with some spells and powers. Or sink still MORE karma into him and make it a F10 spirit with some spells & powers. It's still the best karma you ever spent.

If I were the GM, I would make the player do the dice rolls that the rules state have to be done to create an ally spirit, even though this is chargen. That way at least the character has to take high ranks in the necessary skills & attributes.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neraph
post Oct 8 2010, 05:28 PM
Post #17


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,542
Joined: 30-September 08
From: D/FW Megaplex
Member No.: 16,387



QUOTE (Laodicea @ Oct 8 2010, 10:35 AM) *
If I were the GM, I would make the player do the dice rolls that the rules state have to be done to create an ally spirit, even though this is chargen. That way at least the character has to take high ranks in the necessary skills & attributes.

I wouldn't even let them do that. If I were to allow Karmagen at all, I'd have them buy successes for all those Tests. That limits them a lot more, and makes a little more sense.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
otakusensei
post Oct 9 2010, 01:59 AM
Post #18


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 695
Joined: 2-January 07
From: He has here a minute ago...
Member No.: 10,514



QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 8 2010, 01:28 PM) *
I wouldn't even let them do that. If I were to allow Karmagen at all, I'd have them buy successes for all those Tests. That limits them a lot more, and makes a little more sense.

If you can't trust your players to keep it on the level. you need to have a sit down and plan out the campaign. Get everyone on the same page. If you can't do that, then karmagen isn't a good option, period.

Tymire, it sounds like you have a solid game forming. Good luck.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neraph
post Oct 9 2010, 05:03 AM
Post #19


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,542
Joined: 30-September 08
From: D/FW Megaplex
Member No.: 16,387



QUOTE (otakusensei @ Oct 8 2010, 08:59 PM) *
If you can't trust your players to keep it on the level. you need to have a sit down and plan out the campaign. Get everyone on the same page. If you can't do that, then karmagen isn't a good option, period.

No, my point was that buying successes makes a lot more sense than having pre-game dicerolls. It also represents getting a desired effect that you don't have to stress yourself out from (in character). And I don't allow karmagen because it's far too easy to get carried away with it. BP-gen is much cleaner, easier, and faster.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Laodicea
post Oct 9 2010, 05:28 AM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 558
Joined: 23-June 10
Member No.: 18,749



QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 9 2010, 12:03 AM) *
No, my point was that buying successes makes a lot more sense than having pre-game dicerolls. It also represents getting a desired effect that you don't have to stress yourself out from (in character). And I don't allow karmagen because it's far too easy to get carried away with it. BP-gen is much cleaner, easier, and faster.



/agree with pretty much all of that. Including making them buy hits at 1/4. I do however like the IDEA of karmagen. It makes sense that the advancement mechanic would be the same as the chargen mechanic...it just...doesn't work that well.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neraph
post Oct 9 2010, 05:31 AM
Post #21


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,542
Joined: 30-September 08
From: D/FW Megaplex
Member No.: 16,387



Players start with 75 Street Cred with Karmagen. I don't like it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Laodicea
post Oct 9 2010, 05:33 AM
Post #22


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 558
Joined: 23-June 10
Member No.: 18,749



QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 9 2010, 12:31 AM) *
Players start with 75 Street Cred with Karmagen. I don't like it.


BAHAHA
I hadn't considered that. Then again, I never took the street cred rules seriously either.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neraph
post Oct 9 2010, 05:36 AM
Post #23


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,542
Joined: 30-September 08
From: D/FW Megaplex
Member No.: 16,387



IIRC there was some wierd wording that didn't make it work, but it does at the same time. Or something. It's been a long time.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KarmaInferno
post Oct 9 2010, 05:45 AM
Post #24


Old Man Jones
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,415
Joined: 26-February 02
From: New York
Member No.: 1,699



Street Cred is limited to Charisma, isn't it?



-k
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Makki
post Oct 9 2010, 08:11 AM
Post #25


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,373
Joined: 14-January 10
From: Stuttgart, Germany
Member No.: 18,036



QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 9 2010, 07:31 AM) *
Players start with 75 Street Cred with Karmagen. I don't like it.



well, no. it's not karma/10. it's (earned karma)/10. SR4A p265
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 5th June 2023 - 01:28 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.