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> Indirect Combat Spells, Is this houserule balanced?
Tyro
post Oct 4 2010, 08:37 PM
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Indirect combat spells as written suck. We all know it. How do y'all feel about making them immune to counterspelling and possibly object resistance? The rationale would be that the spell just creates the elemental effect - the effect itself is nonmagical.
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Tanegar
post Oct 4 2010, 08:47 PM
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Letting them bypass OR might not be bad, but letting any spell get past counterspelling instantly makes it a must-have, which in my book equates to overpowered.
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Tyro
post Oct 4 2010, 08:49 PM
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QUOTE (Tanegar @ Oct 4 2010, 01:47 PM) *
Letting them bypass OR might not be bad, but letting any spell get past counterspelling instantly makes it a must-have, which in my book equates to overpowered.

Have you looked at the drain values for indirect combat spells recently? IMO, you pay for that advantage.

[Edit:] Also, ICS allow dodging. Stupid high drain PLUS counterspelling PLUS dodging is a bit much if you ask me.

[Edit 2:] ICS can be stopped by transparent barriers, unlike DCS
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Summerstorm
post Oct 4 2010, 09:14 PM
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Well... since i use the optional rule of (direct spells get drain for net hits)... the indirect aren't that bad. Also the area effects can take out invisible targets or people in cover...

Seems good enough for me. If you let them ignore the OR... that might be possible... But then you have to check all other spells for it too (manipulations/physical illusions). And since they start at your point and travel to the foes, counterspelling should apply (to intercept) The effect itself might be physical but has to be fed. Nothing can keep on burning without fuel.
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Tyro
post Oct 4 2010, 09:22 PM
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QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Oct 4 2010, 02:14 PM) *
Well... since i use the optional rule of (direct spells get drain for net hits)... the indirect aren't that bad. Also the area effects can take out invisible targets or people in cover...

Seems good enough for me. If you let them ignore the OR... that might be possible... But then you have to check all other spells for it too (manipulations/physical illusions). And since they start at your point and travel to the foes, counterspelling should apply (to intercept) The effect itself might be physical but has to be fed. Nothing can keep on burning without fuel.

Maybe just ignore OR, then. Thoughts?
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Dumori
post Oct 4 2010, 09:30 PM
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QUOTE (Tyro @ Oct 4 2010, 10:22 PM) *
Maybe just ignore OR, then. Thoughts?

That seams ok and more sane. Oh look my big blast of fire killed all those trees but as its a drone it didn't even get hot can be silly.
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Mäx
post Oct 4 2010, 09:38 PM
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QUOTE (Dumori @ Oct 4 2010, 11:30 PM) *
That seams ok and more sane. Oh look my big blast of fire killed all those trees but as its a drone it didn't even get hot can be silly.

I'm pretty positive that isn't even a house rule, indirect combat spell dont mention OR in anyway on the description how they work.
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Draco18s
post Oct 4 2010, 09:43 PM
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QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Oct 4 2010, 05:14 PM) *
Well... since i use the optional rule of (direct spells get drain for net hits)...


I bet mages in your games over cast and dual cast a lot, huh.
(and then spend no hits on damage)
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Summerstorm
post Oct 4 2010, 09:47 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 4 2010, 11:43 PM) *
I bet mages in your games over cast and dual cast a lot, huh.
(and then spend no hits on damage)


Hm.. in fact: no. While i let my NPC's overcast a lot, the players nearly never do... and i have not seen any dual cast so far.
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Draco18s
post Oct 4 2010, 09:57 PM
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QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Oct 4 2010, 05:47 PM) *
Hm.. in fact: no. While i let my NPC's overcast a lot, the players nearly never do... and i have not seen any dual cast so far.


They actually eat the extra drain? o.O
It'd be so much more efficient to take double the drain (rolling against it twice) and do double the damage than it is to trade 1:1.

E.g. Force 6 stunbolt (0 net hits used):

F/2-2 (yes?) -> 1 drain, 6 damage (1:6 ratio drain:damage)

Two F6 stunbolts (+1 drain for double-casting)

F/2-2+1 * 2 -> 2 drain (twice), 12 damage (1:6)

One force 6 stunbolt, 6 net hits used:

F/2-2+6 -> 7 drain, 12 damage (slightly worst than 1:2)
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Summerstorm
post Oct 4 2010, 10:04 PM
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Nah... if you split your pools you risk losing both spells (or even one) against counterspelling. Hell, maybe you even have bad luck and someone stops it with willpower alone this time. Also my mage-player has like a bazillion dice against drain (i think 18 or so)... Nearly never gets any (and likes it that way... never overcasts, weirdly... even if he could easily do so)
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Dumori
post Oct 4 2010, 10:10 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Oct 4 2010, 10:38 PM) *
I'm pretty positive that isn't even a house rule, indirect combat spell dont mention OR in anyway on the description how they work.

Every spell by RAW has to beat OR unless exempted. Just as it doesn't mention it in that part alone. Its stated in all spells part.
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Draco18s
post Oct 4 2010, 11:44 PM
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QUOTE (Dumori @ Oct 4 2010, 06:10 PM) *
Every spell by RAW has to beat OR unless exempted. Just as it doesn't mention it in that part alone. Its stated in all spells part.


This is untrue.

QUOTE
Direct Combat Spells:
Handle these as an Opposed
Test. The caster’s Magic + Spellcasting is resisted by the target’s
Body (for physical spells) or Willpower (for mana spells), plus
Counterspelling (if available). The caster needs at least one net
hit for the spell to take effect. Direct Combat spells affect the
target from the inside, so armor does not help with resistance.
Direct Combat spells cast against nonliving objects are
treated as Success Tests; the caster much achieve enough hits to
beat the item’s Object Resistance (see p. 174).
Net hits increase
damage as normal (the object does not get a resistance test).
Indirect Combat Spells:
Indirect Combat spells are
treated like ranged combat attacks; the caster makes a Magic
+ Spellcasting Success Test versus the target’s Reaction. If the
spell hits, the target resist with Body + half Impact armor
(+ Counterspelling, if available), with each hit reducing the
Damage Value. If the modified spell DV does not exceed the
modified Armor, Physical damage is converted to Stun. Note
that nonliving objects resist damage from an Indirect Combat
spell with their Armor rating x 2 (see Barriers, p. 157).
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Summerstorm
post Oct 4 2010, 11:48 PM
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Hm... what is wrong with me... of course it already is so. Sigh... If i look back on it, i never asked for OR when shooting at something with an indirect spell. Why did i even consider not doing it, when i am already not doing it? (As it is the normal ruling)

Ah well...
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tagz
post Oct 4 2010, 11:58 PM
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SR4A p183, last sentence.

Note that objects targeted by Indirect Combat spells get to resist the damage as they would any ranged attack; use their Armor x 2 (or just Armor against spells with elemental effects) to resist damage (Barriers, p177).

Pretty sure the RAI on this is that OR is not a factor when using direct spells on a non-living object, though it doesn't specifically say it isn't subject to OR. Either RAW interpretation is valid but I like the one that ignores OR as it actually gives Indirect Combat spells a point in the game and makes fluff sense as well.

Edit: Scooped by Draco. Different quotes though, both indicating the same thing, that Indirect spells ignore OR.
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Dumori
post Oct 4 2010, 11:59 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 5 2010, 12:44 AM) *
This is untrue.

No it's not.
QUOTE (SR4A pg 184)
A spell cast on a non-living, non-magic target is not resisted, as the
object has no life force and thus no connection to mana with which to
oppose the casting of the spell (note that only Physical spells will affect
non-living objects; mana spells have no effect). Highly processed and
artificial items are more difficult to affect than natural, organic objects.
Spells cast on non-living objects require a Success Test with a threshold
based on the type of object affected (see the Object Resistance Table).

Note that objects targeted by Indirect Combat spells get to resist the
damage as they would any ranged attack; use their Armor rating x 2 (or
just Armor against spells with elemental effects) to resist the damage

(Barriers, p. 166).

The spell has to beat OR and armour. No place dose this get changed.

Edit: looks like I've been ninja'd
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Draco18s
post Oct 5 2010, 12:17 AM
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Yeah, right there in your underlined bit:

Note that objects targeted by Indirect Combat spells get to resist the
damage as they would any ranged attack;
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Neurosis
post Oct 5 2010, 12:17 AM
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QUOTE (tagz @ Oct 4 2010, 07:58 PM) *
SR4A p183, last sentence.

Note that objects targeted by Indirect Combat spells get to resist the damage as they would any ranged attack; use their Armor x 2 (or just Armor against spells with elemental effects) to resist damage (Barriers, p177).

Pretty sure the RAI on this is that OR is not a factor when using direct spells on a non-living object, though it doesn't specifically say it isn't subject to OR. Either RAW interpretation is valid but I like the one that ignores OR as it actually gives Indirect Combat spells a point in the game and makes fluff sense as well.

Edit: Scooped by Draco. Different quotes though, both indicating the same thing, that Indirect spells ignore OR.


Strongly agree.
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hobgoblin
post Oct 5 2010, 06:10 AM
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Hell, it makes sense logically as well. A direct spell works by ripping the target apart from the inside.

A indirect spell in comparison creates a outside force and directs it towards the target (much like a bullet or rocket).

As such, magic has very little to do with what happens with the target. It basically gets a close encounter with a mass of fire, sonic vibrations, electricity, high pressure water (consider that water jets are used to cut steel after all) or something similar.

And then there are all the fun secondary effects (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Dumori
post Oct 5 2010, 01:26 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 5 2010, 01:17 AM) *
Yeah, right there in your underlined bit:

Note that objects targeted by Indirect Combat spells get to resist the
damage as they would any ranged attack;

Its an addition as direct combat spells don't face armour ect. Nowhere does it say and don't need to overcome OR.
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Draco18s
post Oct 5 2010, 02:36 PM
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You mean aside from every description of indirect spells that does not mention OR and every description of direct spells that does? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

Say:
"Note that objects targeted by Indirect Combat spells get to resist the damage as they would any ranged attack."
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Dumori
post Oct 5 2010, 02:55 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 5 2010, 03:36 PM) *
You mean aside from every description of indirect spells that does not mention OR and every description of direct spells that does? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

Say:
"Note that objects targeted by Indirect Combat spells get to resist the damage as they would any ranged attack."

Yup the fact the the section discribing all spells says all have to beat OR then says they indirect also have to face armour. I'm not say the supposed house rule of letting them ignore OR is bad I am saying it is a house rule even if RAI. Till they errata it as it stands in missions and such direct spells are wank I mean higher drain need a direct path as to beat OR and armour to do damage and can be dodged and counter-spelled the only positive they have is you can use the area ones like none scattering 'nades.

Do every description of indirect spells say anything about OR? As I believe the section on how all spells are dealt with covers all spells.
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Muspellsheimr
post Oct 5 2010, 03:11 PM
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I have been over this multiple times in the past. Dumori is correct.


Edit:
Rephrased as rules statements. Book quotes will likely be provided later.



Spells are subject to Object Resistance (when targeted against non-living objects).

Object Resistance provides a Threshold to succeed.

Some [Undefined] spells may be [Have Possibility Of] exempt from this rule.

Indirect Combat spells are treated as Ranged Combat tests [Spellcasting vs. Defense test].

Indirect Combat spells allow a Damage Resistance test.

Indirect Combat spells are not listed as an exception to Object Resistance.

Threshold tests are not exclusive from Opposed tests.

Indirect Combat spells allow a Defense [Opposed] test, must succeed against Object Resistance [Threshold], and allow a Damage Resistance test.






The intent of the rule (generally clear as written, and clarified by designers) is that Indirect Combat spells are not subject to Object Resistance.
The intent of the rule contradicts the Rules as Written, and until included in errata is a House Rule.
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sabs
post Oct 5 2010, 03:12 PM
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The section on Direct Spells specifically mentions OR tests.
The section on Indirect Spells does not.
It seems like the intent was for Indirect spells to not suffer from OR.

The power of indirect spells seems to be they can be Area of Effect, and that they can have secondary elemental effects.

As for Drain Values:

Direct and Indirect both have the same base drain value. F/2
Touch spells get -2 DrV
Area Spells get +2 DrV
Spells with an Elemental Secondary effect get +3

It is a bit weird that Stun Bolt is -1 dv compared to the equivalent punch/clout/blast spell



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sabs
post Oct 5 2010, 03:14 PM
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It doesn't say you get to do reaction+dodge+counterspelling
It says reaction+counterspelling (if you have it)
So it's not really a 'dodge' test.
You can't use Gymnastics Dodge
You can't use your Dodge skill, or the MBW modifier to it.

Reaction and things that add directly to your reaction die pool.
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