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> Violent Sociopaths, Real life from TV
Xirces
post Mar 8 2004, 10:27 PM
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Just watched an interesting TV program and thought someone might be interested.

http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites...ty/killing.html

Basically it was looking at how few people are actually capable of killing, even during war and given that it seems to be a feature of SR characters it made me wonder what that says about us...

Next week they're supposed to feature how the military actually changed the statistics and made modern soldiers more capable of killing. Without wanting to pre-empt, what does everyone think would be done over the next 60 years?

(I originally only watched the thing because a friend was featuring in the combat training segment - I actually know very few people who've had any combat training at all and only a couple who've actually been in service so my experience on this matter is minimal.)

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Siege
post Mar 8 2004, 10:35 PM
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I've heard similar theories regarding the US Civil War and other scenarios.

I think it has to be done, given the trend of downsizing troops. Otherwise you have a smaller body of troops, incapable of absorbing losses and proving ineffectual on the battlefield.

In terms of long-term impact on society -- I think we're already moving in that regard without a directed military program.

A number of theories have been advanced regarding the de-sensitizing of people to violence and gore through news and recreational media. Anyone remember the furor over "Doom" and other FPS? Columbine spurred interest in teen fascination with shooters like "Time Crisis" that are very close to combat trainers.

-Siege
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Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 8 2004, 10:36 PM
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QUOTE (http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/S/science/society/killing.html)
Out went the traditional rifle practice with bullseye-style targets, and in came battlefield simulations, with man-shaped pop-up targets that fell when hit.

This seems to be extremely common indeed. In the Finnish DF, the machinery operating the pop-up targets was made by a firm named Janter -- since the introduction of the systems, "jantteri" has become a common nickname for a soldier, especially non-friendlies.

In 60 years, we'll probably see far more immersive combat simulations. Probably to the point where trainees are fed sensory data so that they might actually feel like they are killing a person. Reluctance to kill should be a non-issue in modern armies by then.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Mar 8 2004, 10:39 PM
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holychampion
post Mar 8 2004, 10:41 PM
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de-sensitivity.

Actual combat training in the Marines included carrying real gear that had sound generators/capacitiors called Miles-gear. Allows you to run around in real terrain and take targets much like Laser-tag. Next step IMHO should be Splat-ball, or even better since they already make real replicas of modern weaponry, 'Airsoft'.
In this fashion you would feel the impact of the hit, as well as carry the exact weaponry on a training course.
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Diesel
post Mar 8 2004, 11:24 PM
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MILES seems to be a little better than paintballing or Airsofting, as it is more realistic in several regards. Paintballs and airsofts both have funny flight characteristics, and sound even less real than the "blank" round that triggers the infrared laser on the MILES system.

Additionally, MILES is significantly more versatile, as it can model multiple ammunition types, and incorporate vehicles.

Regardless, all three are fun as hell.
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Backgammon
post Mar 8 2004, 11:31 PM
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QUOTE (Xirces)
Basically it was looking at how few people are actually capable of killing, even during war and given that it seems to be a feature of SR characters it made me wonder what that says about us...

It doesn't say anything about us. I, for one, am incapable of killing, and in fact can't even fish without feelling terrible. I've made many violent PC and many NPCs that did horrible things to people, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna get a gun a pop a few fellow students.
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holychampion
post Mar 9 2004, 12:03 AM
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Diesel, Agreed. I was thinking that in the future (over the next 60 years), paintballing or Airsofting could be changed to address those issues that u stated. The other thing I ran into is that it wasn't always accurate, as you are trying to hit a sensor harness attached to moving person, or strap-packed onto the side of a vehicle. But I completely agree all three are outrageously fun.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 9 2004, 12:13 AM
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Maybe in 60 years there might really be soldiers wondering why their mates aren't "respawning" after a battle.

Once simulations reach that level of realism, do you think they'd really want the training to be that realistic? Would they put all the blood and gore in there, or would the official army simulations still be rather sterile?
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Rev
post Mar 9 2004, 12:24 AM
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Heh, like Enders Game but right down to the footsoldiers. They might all be expecting to be yelled at by thier commander for screwing up when, in fact, they really are dying this time. :)
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Siege
post Mar 9 2004, 01:16 AM
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QUOTE (Rev)
Heh, like Enders Game but right down to the footsoldiers. They might all be expecting to be yelled at by thier commander for screwing up when, in fact, they really are dying this time. :)

If it's a total immersion sim, they may never really be able to tell the difference.

Every time they "die", they don't know if they'll actually wake up in a sim-tank or not.

-Siege
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Frag-o Delux
post Mar 9 2004, 01:19 AM
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What is the system the FBI and such use? It uses real rounds, but instead of lead it is a paint pellet. They have all kinds of weapons that use it and they are standard weapons. The same MP5 used in a raid the week before is now being used in a training Hogans Alley. They sound real as hell and hit like a truck, just non-lethal. The police services using it have said the gun acts in the same way as if it was a lead round.
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mfb
post Mar 9 2004, 02:34 AM
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the main thing the military's done is focus on treating soldiers after they experience combat--watching for signs of PTSS, reacting correctly when it shows up, offering counselling, etcetera. the base 'problem' is that, psychologically, humans are not built for killing each other. the only real way to make a human feel okay about killing other humans is to make him believe at some level that the people he's killing aren't real--they're just differently-shaped targets to be knocked down. the problem, of course, is that it can eventually become difficult to hold that dichtotomy in mind; at some point, the soldier begins to realize that there's no real difference between an enemy soldier and the mailman. alternatively, or concurrently, the stress of holding that dichtotomy together might cause the soldier's mind to break down in myriad other ways.

so, yes, the military might have effective ways of turning people into killing machines, by 2060--likely, there are effective ways to do it now. the problem is turning that switch off, when it's time to go home.
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Diesel
post Mar 9 2004, 02:45 AM
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http://blackjack.dumpshock.com/stuff/WEAP6.htm

Scroll down to the bottom, "Thrill Kill Link".

Speaks for itself, I'd say.
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Siege
post Mar 9 2004, 03:15 AM
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That's an interesting idea -- it's difficult to condition someone to "kill acceptable targets only" as opposed to "kill indifferently" or perhaps "kill indiscriminately."

I wonder if that's relatively recent phenomenon versus the default human condition.

-Siege
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kevyn668
post Mar 9 2004, 03:33 AM
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"Soldiers are given inhuman orders everyday. That's why there are soldiers."

Show your SR knowledge: tell me which novel that line is from. Extra NERPS if you can tell me who said it.
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Kagetenshi
post Mar 9 2004, 04:33 AM
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QUOTE (Siege)
Anyone remember the furor over "Doom" and other FPS?

Yes; it was, and is, all bull. FPSs were used to build teamwork, not to desensitize. Even today it's hard to argue that chaingunning someone in UT2kA BAJILLION is going to really translate to being more ready to do so IRL. The light-gun games are perhaps more iffy, but still...

~J
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Siege
post Mar 9 2004, 04:44 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Siege @ Mar 8 2004, 05:35 PM)
Anyone remember the furor over "Doom" and other FPS?

Yes; it was, and is, all bull. FPSs were used to build teamwork, not to desensitize. Even today it's hard to argue that chaingunning someone in UT2kA BAJILLION is going to really translate to being more ready to do so IRL. The light-gun games are perhaps more iffy, but still...

~J

"Doom" was the tip of the iceberg.

Check out games like "Soldier of Fortune 2" that have even higher body counts, gore factors and extremely realistic violence.

While team building is certainly a benefit, in addition to forcing players to think tactically and strategically, the underlying action is still receiving positive reinforcement.

-Siege
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Kagetenshi
post Mar 9 2004, 04:53 AM
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Meh. We could do with less people anyway. Especially the people who play the GTA series.

~J
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Tziluthi
post Mar 9 2004, 04:58 AM
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QUOTE (holychampion)

de-sensitivity.

Actual combat training in the Marines included carrying real gear that had sound generators/capacitiors called Miles-gear. Allows you to run around in real terrain and take targets much like Laser-tag. Next step IMHO should be Splat-ball, or even better since they already make real replicas of modern weaponry, 'Airsoft'.
In this fashion you would feel the impact of the hit, as well as carry the exact weaponry on a training course.


That reminds me of something out of Metal Gear Solid 2: when Raiden meets Snake for the first time, and Snake is talking about the VR simulations turning war into a video game. Interesting...
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kevyn668
post Mar 9 2004, 05:35 AM
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Despite what you see on the tube, killing a bloke isn't that easy. I don't have first hand experience but I've talked to a few that have. They all said the cliche bit about the first one being the hardest and then it gets easier. But I don't know if thats bluster or not.

Either way, I think you have to believe that you had no choice. "him or me." That sort of thing. I dunno. Not really qualified for that sort of debate, I guess.
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Frag-o Delux
post Mar 9 2004, 06:01 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Meh. We could do with less people anyway. Especially the people who play the GTA series.

~J

What is wrong with GTA? There are bigger problems then just being a GTA player. I would bet that the people who play these games and act out on them had a mental problem well before they picked up a game pad.

I don't think video games have anything to do with the cause of such stupid acts.

Besides if video games teach how to go on mass murder sprees, then D&D teaches us how to conjur deamons and SR teaches us how to break into highly secure compounds to steal valuable data or trinkets for shadowy underworld bosses. And Tetris teaches us how to be masons. :)

Last time I checked I have yet to go on a homicidal rampage (though I have wanted to), Satan is yet my bitch, and I think if I tried to break into the NSA building right down the street from my house I would be shot all to hell. And no matter how hard I try that damn patio wall is still not plumb. I guess I need the Nutcracker playing. :)

Video games are just mindless brain candy for well ajusted and well brought up kids. For the morons or the neglected, they are an excuse to do stupid shit, and we as a society are letting it happen by not making them take responsibility.

Now back to the lounge, I mean SR forum.

VR trainers are good way to teach a skill or get someone used to a situation. BUT only if it is a training type program. Running around a low gravity world with a railgun is going to teach absolutely nothing. I don't care how long you play NASCAR on your PC you will still stuck at driving. A fully functioning VR/simulator is a different story though.
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Zazen
post Mar 9 2004, 06:02 AM
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QUOTE (Siege)
"Doom" was the tip of the iceberg.

I remember my mother getting really pissed at me when she discovered my copy of Wolf 3d on her 286 at the age of 12 or so. I also remember seeing it on cheesy local news segments about how it corrupts children and whatnot, way before Doom. I think Castle Wolfenstein was the real tip of the iceberg. :)
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Kagetenshi
post Mar 9 2004, 06:18 AM
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QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
What is wrong with GTA? There are bigger problems then just being a GTA player. I would bet that the people who play these games and act out on them had a mental problem well before they picked up a game pad.

My comment came more from my personal dislike of the series than any statement about what the players would be likely to do.

Yes, I'm an elitist bastard.

~J
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Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 9 2004, 07:05 AM
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QUOTE (Zazen)
I remember my mother getting really pissed at me when she discovered my copy of Wolf 3d on her 286 at the age of 12 or so.

I was playing Wolfenstein soon after it came out, which makes me... 9? at the time. My younger friends were playing it at the same time, some 7 at the time. And the ages keep dropping -- Doom is mostly for 4 and 5-year-olds these days, because it's so much easier to play than modern FPSs. Yet we still stand at 0 high school shoot-outs. And I'm too old now. :(

QUOTE (mfb)
the problem is turning that switch off, when it's time to go home.

That's a really good point, and I haven't got a clue how the problem might be solved. Perhaps the training simulations could always use some specific sensory data which should only occur IRL in combat situations? Then maybe the soldiers would only go into "FPS mode" when the air starts to fill with fast-flying bits of metal.

Specops operators, snipers and certain other specialty soldiers would have to be trained to be capable of killing anyone in almost any situation, and I don't think there's any easy way to solve this problem with them.
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Frag-o Delux
post Mar 9 2004, 07:10 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux @ Mar 9 2004, 01:01 AM)
What is wrong with GTA? There are bigger problems then just being a GTA player. I would bet that the people who play these games and act out on them had a mental problem well before they picked up a game pad.

My comment came more from my personal dislike of the series than any statement about what the players would be likely to do.

Yes, I'm an elitist bastard.

~J

OK, since you put it that way I won't take offense. I love GTA, at least GTA3 and Vice City (or should I say Scarface the video game). Can't wait for GTA4. :)
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