Where did all these indians come from?, Native American Nation Options

[Swing Kid]

Has it been addressed somewhere in the books where all of the Native Americans came from at the beginning of the 21st Century to take over that much geography? There simply aren't enough of them left in the US to make this seem feasable. Not trying to be insensitive, but I can't help but wonder about this. Granted, this shouldn't be the thing about this game that I put too much skepticism into when we so easily accept dragons, magic, and machine guns that go crazy after 3 rounds have been fired through them (3rd Edition beef).

[Tanegar]

They didn't take the territory with an army, they took it with a magical ritual. The Amerind shaman Daniel Coleman, alias Howling Coyote, and his followers began the Great Ghost Dance sometime in 2017. On August 17th of that year, at 10:32AM, the Dance culminated in the simultaneous eruptions of Mount Hood, Mount Rainier, Mount St. Helens, and Mount Adams. It was the magical equivalent of a nuclear alpha strike. The Treaty of Denver, which recognized the sovereignty of the Native American Nations, was signed the next year, in 2018.

[Swing Kid]

Yeah, that part is covered in each of the rulebooks. My meaning is that the books now suggest that there are a great number of them (at least enough to have a Native American Nation). There are currently about 4 million Native Americans in the US (New York has 8 million people in it for comparison). The question is really about the quantity of Native Americans. Is all of the NAN empty except for the small population boom that would have happened afterwards (maybe even doubled in that time)? I can deal with the idea that everybody else (non-NA) left the land because their government waved them over the the new UCAS borders, but I am having trouble with the idea of how these few Native Americans can hold the borders.

[Marcus]

This was topic our gaming group actually discussed, we considered it and decided after review some material and concluded mostly they absorbed the existing population of those territories. 1990 Census pop statistics show there are a little over 1 million Native Americans, however if you expand that to folks who are only part Native American many more people join that category. So its a little of the fact that many don't really care who the national gov is, and a little of many more who have partial Native American ancestry join the fold. Most of that land has the low population density, so with the shift it really didn't change a whole lot.

[Summerstorm]

Also... Magical fertility rituals *g*. But yeah, i too guess they have taken in a lot people.

[Swing Kid]

Maybe all of those people who say they are 1/8 Cherokee all awakened themselves into pure indians when the rest of us turned into Orks, Elves, and Trolls. Eh?

[Marcus]

Maybe all of those people who say they are 1/8 Cherokee all awakened themselves into pure indians when the rest of us turned into Orks, Elves, and Trolls. Eh?

That was our theory basically. With many body mods being a 15 min procedure that could be accomplished in most local malls it wouldn't be hard to get the look etc.

[Knight Saber]

One thing they made a point of was that the Indians had very low rates of VITAS (which killed 25% and then 10% of the population), as they were isolated from it by the internment camps. That'd bring it up some... and another thing can be seen in real life. People with even a small amount of native american background can claim tribal membership. This happens a lot with tribes that have casino money coming in. One can imagine the same thing would be done in the aftermath of the NANs forming. They'd probably also offer to "adopt" people with needed skills into the tribes for the good of the newfound nations. Doubtless there was no shortage of applicants. Everyone loves a winner, after all.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Where do all the NAN come from?

In a world where Metahumanity exists as the new hate filled, fear The Other racist outlet ... and shamans and spiritual warriors are real, being a NAN is a lot less about if your parents are cousins. Heck, even if it is, you would be surprised how many people can trace their genetic heritage to some NAN ancestry ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNCQUsNY0w4 ) That aside, being NAN today and especially in Shadowrun, IMHO, is about the formation of a conventional, modern local tradition. So when you even use the term NAN, you are being far more general than may be fair, since the SSC that surrounds Seattle is a very different nation than say the PCC that is bordered with Atzlan and has absorbed the failed Ute Nation, which failed in part due to its own racist actions of having a narrow view on who could be a citizen of their nation. When you look at some of the notes in the wiki, you will notice that some NAN member states were even early adopters of so called "pink skin" tribes and metahumanity tribes, especially the SSC. So I see the population as largely unchanged but the culture and where their centralized government resides changed to something more local and magical in the balkanized world of SR. With the shoe on the other foot, local governments may have found the opportunity to in addition to the local populations having a higher percentage of the people other neighbouring nations were at the time rejecting due to their lower total population numbers to begin with (how do some of the western states/Canadian provinces populations stack against the population of the earthquaked New York, since you are using that comparison), they probably had the opportunity to facilitate conditions for a population boom for a people that had before been living in some of the poorest conditions that can be found in North America in terms of water, housing, employment, and general infrastructure quality. Many NAN families have many children but the children had low survival rates before due to poor living conditions for them and their parents, now turn that around where tax dollars are being spent on their infrastructure to improve their quality of life, how do you think things are going to go? Good times after plenty of hardship, how about living life to its fullest with plenty of good fucking - which would include anyone of any other ethnicity, thus essentially adopting those people as well into the local NAN culture. Must not forget those who may not have any NAN genetic heritage but will gladly tap that NAN ass in marriage, especially since those NAN have basicly just won and everybody loves a winner.

Say, after the US came out relatively as a victor in WWII, didn't you have a population boom? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Edit: Too funny, Knight Saber and I were typing up posts saying similar things at the same time. LOL (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[kzt]

There were 4.3 million at the 2000 census. These statistics actually reflect anyone who claims any degree of Native American ancestry, including the 120,000 in Alaska. But the numbers just don't work.

For example, the largest two two tribes in the the US are the Cherokee and the Navajo, accounting for 1.2 million people. These tribes don't exist in SR. The Cherokee Nation is in Oklahoma, part of the UCAS. The 267,000 residents (310,000 total people, including those outside the Rez) of the Navajo nation were apparently killed by the 10,000 people who claim some degree of association with the Ute tribe, or the 73,000 people who claim to have membership in the 21 different squabbling tribes that collectively are the "Pueblo", as they don't seem to exist in SR.

The 173,000 Choctaws (3rd largest) live in Oklahoma and Mississippi.

The Chippewa tribe is the 5th largest tribe and it's 160,000 members live mostly in Wisconsin and Minnesota, which is also part of the UCAS.

The Apache tribes (6th largest - with 105,000) mostly live in Oklahoma and Texas.

The 90,000 Iroquois (7th largest) mostly live in Northern New York, though also Wisconsin, Oklahoma, North Carolina.

The 74,000 Creek (8th) live in Oklahoma, Alabama, Georgia, and Florida.

The Lumbee tribe is the 10th largest and their 60,000 members live in South Carolina.

Are you seeing a pattern here?

Out of the 10 largest tribes, Only the 167,000 Sioux and the 73,000 "pueblo" live in the NAN.

So yeah, where the hell did all the Indians come from is a perfectly reasonable question and the answer is that virtually everything SR has written about the NAN has no relationship to reality. Don't even try to make it make any sense.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well in theory... when the NA's took back half the country with the mystical ghost dance.. the ones living out side the area flocked TO the area's ceded to the Native Americans and helped to populate them Kzt.

If there was a brand new nation with most of the houses and infrastructure just sitting there waiting for you to move into your mansion or what ever, and all you had to do was move halfway across the country. You'd move. I'm sure the people that you're listing off in Mississippi and Wisconsin and Florida and all hauled and moved to the NAN REALLY fast. Most especially considering the persecution in the lands they were in and the hate that would rain down on them there.

[Mordinvan]

Well in theory... when the NA's took back half the country with the mystical ghost dance.. the ones living out side the area flocked TO the area's ceded to the Native Americans and helped to populate them Kzt.

If there was a brand new nation with most of the houses and infrastructure just sitting there waiting for you to move into your mansion or what ever, and all you had to do was move halfway across the country. You'd move. I'm sure the people that you're listing off in Mississippi and Wisconsin and Florida and all hauled and moved to the NAN REALLY fast. Most especially considering the persecution in the lands they were in and the hate that would rain down on them there.

Where did they get the population, or money to build all these new houses with? I mean seriously? If I was told I had to give up my entire country because of terrorist threats about magical nuclear bombs, you can bet I'd leave all the infrastructure behind as ashes. The soil poisoned, and the rivers glowing.

[KarmaInferno]

They didn't build new houses.

They took over the houses of the people that got kicked out.




-k

[Mordinvan]

They didn't build new houses.

They took over the houses of the people that got kicked out.




-k

and I have a hard time believing that the infrastructure was left intact.

[kzt]

Yeah, it's amazing what an "accidental" bullet does to an oil-filled couple of hundred thousand volt transformer. You know that the high voltage transformers used in substations are all custom designed, made outside the US and have a lead time over over a year?

And I'm sure the power company techs wouldn't accidentally turn off the cooling water to the generators and then find the automatic thermal shutoffs failed when they left town. Nor would a series of concrete truck accidentally fill the storm and sanitary sewers with metal fiber reinforced high strength concrete. Or the gas company accidentally put extremely high pressure gas into the gas mains and fill every building with gas. Or....

No, people being kicked out at gun point having everything they own stolen from them would never do petty things like that. ...

[Mayhem_2006]

Yeah, it's amazing what an "accidental" bullet does to an oil-filled couple of hundred thousand volt transformer. You know that the high voltage transformers used in substations are all custom designed, made outside the US and have a lead time over over a year?

And I'm sure the power company techs wouldn't accidentally turn off the cooling water to the generators and then find the automatic thermal shutoffs failed when they left town. Nor would a series of concrete truck accidentally fill the storm and sanitary sewers with metal fiber reinforced high strength concrete. Or the gas company accidentally put extremely high pressure gas into the gas mains and fill every building with gas. Or....

No, people being kicked out at gun point having everything they own stolen from them would never do petty things like that. ...

To people who can cause their new homes to sink into a pit of lava?

[Mordinvan]

To people who can cause their new homes to sink into a pit of lava?

VX nerve gas anyone? Even the NANs need to breath.

[Mordinvan]

To people who can cause their new homes to sink into a pit of lava?

VX nerve gas anyone? Even the NANs need to breath.

[Ascalaphus]

We've been over this again and again in the NAN Fading topic (dig it up if you like). It basically comes down to this question:

"Do you think it'd be cool if the injuns took back half of America?"

If you chose Yes, then there are lots of ways you can rationalize it; if No, then nothing people say here will convince you.

[sabs]

Besides, the real "wtf" isn't the NAN taking over.. it's the internment camps in the first place.

and basically they decided that Balkanizing the US into a bunch of Native American Nations would be 'cool'
So that's what they did.

[Red-ROM]

yea, this game was not designed by Historians or anthropologists. They didn't even have google to reference back then. The NAN is a unique and interesting part of shadowrun that is pretty far fetched in reality(much like dragons and elves)

I would imagine that tribes like the Cherokee, that weren't represented in Denver, would still choose assimilation into the "Pueblo" tribe over internment camps and racial hatred. Also, my mother claimed 1/8 Cherokee, and she's half Japanese. I'm pretty sure she is 0% Cherokee, but she got in none the less. SO now I am 1/16 Cherokee and you'd never know by looking at me (A problem that is easily fixed in 2070, It's how I imagine the mafia stays so Italian looking too)

[Nath]

For example, the largest two two tribes in the the US are the Cherokee and the Navajo, accounting for 1.2 million people. These tribes don't exist in SR. The Cherokee Nation is in Oklahoma, part of the UCAS. The 267,000 residents (310,000 total people, including those outside the Rez) of the Navajo nation were apparently killed by the 10,000 people who claim some degree of association with the Ute tribe, or the 73,000 people who claim to have membership in the 21 different squabbling tribes that collectively are the "Pueblo", as they don't seem to exist in SR.

The 173,000 Choctaws (3rd largest) live in Oklahoma and Mississippi.

The Chippewa tribe is the 5th largest tribe and it's 160,000 members live mostly in Wisconsin and Minnesota, which is also part of the UCAS.

The Apache tribes (6th largest - with 105,000) mostly live in Oklahoma and Texas.

The 90,000 Iroquois (7th largest) mostly live in Northern New York, though also Wisconsin, Oklahoma, North Carolina.

The 74,000 Creek (8th) live in Oklahoma, Alabama, Georgia, and Florida.

The Lumbee tribe is the 10th largest and their 60,000 members live in South Carolina.

Are you seeing a pattern here?

Out of the 10 largest tribes, Only the 167,000 Sioux and the 73,000 "pueblo" live in the NAN.

If you read the Native American Nations and Shadows of North America soucebooks, the NAN were named after one tribe to honor their role in the war or the Ghost Dance. Each nation host several tribes, including those whose traditional territory was to remain within US border. According to SoNA, there is about 1.4 millions Cherokees, 360,000 Choctaws and 200,000 Creeks in the Sioux Nation.

[hobgoblin]

Besides, the real "wtf" isn't the NAN taking over.. it's the internment camps in the first place.

and basically they decided that Balkanizing the US into a bunch of Native American Nations would be 'cool'
So that's what they did.

And hell, consider the book hardwired. It pretty much created the SR rigger. And much of its initial story is about a smuggling run between states in a fractured USA.

For a outsider, USA staying together is at times baffling given the level of complaints about federal interference. One starts to wonder if someone will basically tell the complainers to "put up or shut up" (i think that is the phrase).

As for the population issue, consider the supposed orc birth rate...

Oh, and much of the rural areas have a much more dangerous fauna then it used to have. As for farmland, i wonder how much the corps compensate using skyscraper hydroponics and vat grown replacements. There had already been the resource rush, and i suspect the megas could get the NAN to sign on to the BRA in return for recognition from the corp court. Hell, a balkanized world may aid the megas as it allows them to hide their crazy stuff in the cracks between the borders.

Thinking about it, i wonder if not hardwired have a bigger influence on SR then the mirrorshades trilogy...

[Swing Kid]

Sounds like the real answer would be - "Hey, now that we (the NAN) are taking our land back, but we really aren't trying to be dicks about it, all you people that still live here need to change your ethnic status over to Native American and put on these government issue feathered baseball caps, or move over there and learn to enjoy hockey."

I guess I can buy it. I lived on a reservation in New Mexico as a teenager (My dad taught english there), and found the people to be very inviting, even formerly welcoming him into their Navajo tribe (ceremony and everything), so maybe that is the answer.

[Smash]

The book quite clearly states that people could stay in the territories but would have to accept being a kind of second class citicen. So the Area in question probably has around 150-200 million people in it. Say 1/2 of them leave to to seattle, UCAS etc then about 5% of everywhere else heads to the new territories then you get a population of what 85 million? Seems pretty reasonable to me.