Where did all these indians come from?, Native American Nation Options

[Karoline]

Here is how it happened. SR =/= The real world.

[Critias]

Here is how it happened. SR =/= The real world.

[/thread]

[KarmaInferno]

VX nerve gas anyone? Even the NANs need to breath.

You're going to gas some folks that caused nationwide earthquakes and volcanic eruptions?

Remember at the time, for all that people knew, these guys could make your head explode just by thinking about it. They could be reading your every thought. They might be able to snap their fingers and kill an entire neighborhood. They might be able to turn the VX gas into cute bunnies. It was freaking MAGIC, man, and nobody knew what it was capable of.

In short, they had the Bigger Gun. And they had already demonstrated they were willing to use it.



-k

[CanadianWolverin...]

I guess I should have put InB4NANHaters in my other post.

I too can buy it too Swing, I currently live on a soon to be formerly a Rez, heck they are writing up a Constitution these days as we have forums on what kind of government we want that acknowledges tradition but in every almost every other sense is based on the British and American models of government with Executive and Legislative Branches.

And as far as us being a relatively tiny village where most of the currently registered under the Indian Act members are actually spread around in other communities on Vancouver Island (makes for an interesting political situation with off-Rez votes deciding what happens to the people in Ittatsoo), the coming implementation of local governance and a certain amount of liquidity in assets as agreed upon in the Treaty (and the Treaty of Denver is far more generous in the fiction than what I witnessed in this decades long process) means that there could very likely be something of a economic boom in the area as they build the community they want to live in. Educated guesses estimate their will be an influx of formerly off-Rez members as they are given requested lots of land. Also being determined is what the requirements for citizenship will be, so will very likely change from the standards used under the Indian Act - as one prominent member of the implementation process put it diplomatically to me "We want people who want to participate, it doesn't matter who your parents are" so I know there are people pulling for very adoptive inclusionary standards and others who are exclusionary based on the standards they have lived under for years with the Indian Act.

Here is a link for anyone interested in IRL goings on in this neck of the woods: http://ufn.ca/index.php?option=com_content...4&Itemid=39

This sort of stuff certainly makes the SR fiction more plausible to me. Especially when I recall people in Aboriginal Studies in college claiming 1/64 NAN blood heritage as part of the discussions my "FBI" wife would tell me about with a laugh "That just means their parents weren't cousins!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) She likes to tell me with a chuckle and a wink "That is why I got with you, mumhuknee, there is no way you are my cousin." <3 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) We made a beautiful daughter together.

Not sure why people get so hung up on the US census numbers that people identify as NAN when the fiction is set in a place with metahumanity as the new race card. You're still caring about blackNwhite while the future is all ToBeOrkOrNotToBeOrk and shit. The Sinsearach elf tribe, Cascade Orks tribe, elven Manitou tribe and various "pinkskin" tribes would like to have a word with you about adopting a cultural tradition being stronger than genetic blood markers and outward indicators. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And the SR NAN member states that did give a big deal about limited ancestral indicators like skin colour have since gone under and were absorbed by their neighbours, what more do you want? The places that kicked whitey out perhaps did have their infrastructure fail but by that same token will you concede that the places that didn't kick out others went on to flourish in comparison to their past on things like lack of potable water to drink, houses that weren't mouldy and paved roads that allow children a better chance at life and a means of supporting that life economically? When you are living in ghetto world and then get internment camps as the cherry on top, almost everything is an improvement when you start implementing your Treaty of Denver, especially if your "whitey" neighbours agreed you about kicking the those damn corrupt UCAS bastards out. The conditions for population booms are there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

http://www.ehow.com/about_5140073_effects-...ion-growth.html

[Marcus]

VX nerve gas? Ya'll are Nutz. That's all i have to say.

[kzt]

Chemical guys used to joke about how sticky VX being stickier than snot. It sticks to anything and takes months to break down to the point where being around at tiny amount for a while isn't extremely unhealthy. A little goes a long way.

[Warlordtheft]

Has it been addressed somewhere in the books where all of the Native Americans came from at the beginning of the 21st Century to take over that much geography? There simply aren't enough of them left in the US to make this seem feasable. Not trying to be insensitive, but I can't help but wonder about this. Granted, this shouldn't be the thing about this game that I put too much skepticism into when we so easily accept dragons, magic, and machine guns that go crazy after 3 rounds have been fired through them (3rd Edition beef).

Best explanation is the fact that Hispanics count as Native Americans, most of the NAN allowed some anglo's to stay so they'd have an economic base. And finally, even those with little indian blood were eligible for citizenship.

It is explained this way in Shadows of North America.

[kzt]

SoNA NAN is largely a crappy attempt at retcon. Actually it's mostly just a crappy attempt at retcon.

If the Hispanics (aka Mexican's) who are still angry enough about the US "stealing" part of Mexico they are going to abandon their homes and head off with the clothes on their back to be ruled by crazies they are pretty angry and determined. Are they likely to voluntarily become servants to a ruling class made up of what Mexicans think of a total inferiors instead of just handing the territory over to Aztlan? Since there are vastly more Hispanics than Indians and even more across the border I don't think this works out like the book says.

[IKerensky]

As I said in another topic, remember that Shadowrun World is not OUR world as we know it. Is ancient history is totally different in reality to what our was. And there is no reason why his more recent history isn't so.

In our world, there is not such large reservation nor an hybrid horror/human roaming it to teach magic to shamans.

In Shadowrun Wild West perhaps there haven't be a Custer, perhaps the Native Indian doesnt revolt as much or doesnt die as much from pox and other european disease. Perhaps they were a lot more numerous to start with (If you consider the 4th world population I think 6th world one is superior to ours, before Vista(Vitas?)).

Perhaps the Native population deal better than other with major epidemic.

2 other important element :

NAN lands is a lot of nature sanctuary with an actual scarce population, sometimes even nomad. The NAN have integrated a LOT OF metahuman when they started and they racial policy isn't as tight as other.

In our world Native Indians come from the West some 8.000-10.000 years ago, in Shadowrun they come from the East some 4.000-5.000 years ago and probably as a diaspora (or at least part of them do).

Dont use our world stats and history to discuss Shadowrun world, they aren't valid until retconned.

[hobgoblin]

VX nerve gas? Ya'll are Nutz. That's all i have to say.

You only notice that now? I swear, the number of "rugged individualists" (or people that like to pretend they are) seems to be higher in cyberpunk related game communities then any other genre of RPG.

[Acme]

I'm almost of a mind that we just can NAN discussion on this board. Like it was mentioned before, all these threads break down to are usually a few points: 1. if you agree with the idea you can justify it, but if you seem to have a hate for it to begin with, you'll always justify your skepticism. 2. Someone is going to blur the line of here and there, probably end up making people wonder if they had a mad on against AmerInds in general. 3. Some Internet Tough Guy is going to go too far and suggest stuff like the VX Nerve gas. 4. Someone will go off on a political tangent and get this locked anyway.

[Omenowl]

The whole native american aspect with the balkanization made no sense. I just redraw the map. and ignore much of the native american aspect in shadowrun except in Canada.

[Mordinvan]

-+
You're going to gas some folks that caused nationwide earthquakes and volcanic eruptions?

I'd deploy WMD's against anyone who did so to me, so yes.

Remember at the time, for all that people knew, these guys could make your head explode just by thinking about it. They could be reading your every thought. They might be able to snap their fingers and kill an entire neighborhood. They might be able to turn the VX gas into cute bunnies. It was freaking MAGIC, man, and nobody knew what it was capable of.

Given that the tactics they'd employed already indicate such to NOT be the case. Using things like tornadoes to take down a bunch of fighter planes when during the fan blades of their turbines into cotton candy would have been so much more funny......
I would deploy every conventional force I could. Besides SR magic actually CAN'T do things like the GGD. It was assigned the power of plot, as was howling coyote. There is no spell or spirit ability which would allow you to stroll past a dozen people who were all taking wideburst shots at you. You'd have no dodge pool left, and even one hit on the test would see you eating lead. It was poorly thought out, poorly written, and all in all, a very stupid idea.

In short, they had the Bigger Gun. And they had already demonstrated they were willing to use it.

Which I can only see resulting in their extermination. When someone actively demonstrates they are a clear and present danger to you.... well, time to whip out the small pox, or any other number of diseases the first nations have been shown to historically have no resistance to.

[Doc Chase]

'Cept the big secret that the Russians and Americans were hiding was that their nukes weren't working. With that card unable to be played, conventional means was pretty much all they had.

(Plus trying to gas/nuke what amounts to a guerilla campaign is somewhat difficult)

As for using biologicals such as VX...y'all know they've been systematically destroying that stuff since the 60's, right? By the time the Ghost Dance hits, the majority of world-wide VX stockpiles would have been destroyed.

[Tiny Deev]

I see it as the United Arab Emirates. Theres only 2 and a half million Emirates, but the there are WAY more people in the UAE.

[sabs]

Not to mention that the Native Americans who are alive in 1980 are not any more succeptible to Small Pox than Europeans.

The ones that were, died a hundred years earlier.

[Ascalaphus]

I'm almost of a mind that we just can NAN discussion on this board. Like it was mentioned before, all these threads break down to are usually a few points: 1. if you agree with the idea you can justify it, but if you seem to have a hate for it to begin with, you'll always justify your skepticism. 2. Someone is going to blur the line of here and there, probably end up making people wonder if they had a mad on against AmerInds in general. 3. Some Internet Tough Guy is going to go too far and suggest stuff like the VX Nerve gas. 4. Someone will go off on a political tangent and get this locked anyway.

Hear hear.

[sabs]

NAN Happened.. and lets just leave it at that.

Although I wish I could figure out how Sioux, Salish-Sidhe, Algonquin Manitou stay in existence as viable 'countries'

Pueblo I understand.
Inuit ... well there's like 40 of them who care (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

but some of the other countries. How do their economies survive?

[Karoline]

I'd deploy WMD's against anyone who did so to me, so yes.

Yeah, because using WMDs on your own territory is a brilliant idea. Now instead of losing that land to NAN, you lose it to radiation. You win a gold star.

Given that the tactics they'd employed already indicate such to NOT be the case. Using things like tornadoes to take down a bunch of fighter planes when during the fan blades of their turbines into cotton candy would have been so much more funny......
I would deploy every conventional force I could.

Not really. Perhaps the 'turn to cotton candy' power doesn't work on inanimate objects, perhaps it doesn't work on things they can't see. Fact is that all of those things mentioned could be done with SR magic, and most of them are in the book.

Besides SR magic actually CAN'T do things like the GGD. It was assigned the power of plot, as was howling coyote. There is no spell or spirit ability which would allow you to stroll past a dozen people who were all taking wideburst shots at you. You'd have no dodge pool left, and even one hit on the test would see you eating lead. It was poorly thought out, poorly written, and all in all, a very stupid idea.

Sure it can. There is nothing in the laws of magic that says GGD can't happen, and there is no reason to believe that the single most powerful shaman ever to exist, when backed by hundreds(thousands?) of other mages in a massive ritual couldn't create and cast an 'activate volcanoes' spell and a 'control weather' spell.

As for walking past a dozen people? Sure, why not? Deflection cast at F24? There you go. Maybe throw on an increased reaction spell to pump that up by a dozen or so points. No reason it couldn't work. That or maybe he was having a spirit possess him, giving him immunity to normal weapons which burst fire wouldn't really help with.

Which I can only see resulting in their extermination. When someone actively demonstrates they are a clear and present danger to you.... well, time to whip out the small pox, or any other number of diseases the first nations have been shown to historically have no resistance to.

Native Americans aren't any more susceptible to small pox than any other group in modern times. Like someone else said, those that weren't resistant to it died a long time ago. Just like the Europeans who weren't resistant to it died a long time ago. And as we saw during WWII, when someone beats the crap out of you in a bigger way than you thought possible in a month or more, and they do it in a few seconds, you don't go "Oh, well, I'm going to fight with my inferior weaponry." you go "Okay, I surrender."

[sabs]

To be fair.. if you're America and someone beats you up in a huge way.. you get pissed off and come out swinging.

Pearl Harbor
9/11

And yes, The European countries went " I surrender" and then every single one of them developed very hardcore resistance groups that took the fighting to the nazis.

It's all very flawed.
It goes on the premise that the Indian Unrest of the 1970's got worse and worse until the US government yanked them out of the reservations and stuffed them into effectively concentration camps. This in turn outrages the Native Americans, and a leader comes along willing to do anything to Free His People..

Then, it sets up some weird weak Federal government that's going to act contrary to how the US Government has acted in the last 100 years.

You've got the GGD, the Volcanoes (which should have shunted us into a minor ice age)
Then the Treaty of Denver.

It's all based on pretty precarious nonsensical crap.

That being said.. it's the ShadowRun setting.. so unless you want to redo the history.. it's what we got.. so just go with it.

[Krojar]

Don't forget that hispanics (presumably both white and non-white varieties) were considered "native" thanks to Atzlan being in the first formation of the NAN. That counts for a considerable amount of people west of the Miss.

[sabs]

I'm surprised Azlan didn't ask for California Back.

The Old Mexico wackjobs are still clamoring for getting Texas and California back.

[Krojar]

They took San Diego and southern Texas but were stopped from overreaching themselves eventually.

[KarmaInferno]

I'd deploy WMD's against anyone who did so to me, so yes.

Yeah? While their WMDs are pointed at your face? Before you had time to prepare or even pull the keys to your weapons lockers out of your pocket?

The NAN folks got the drop on the USA. It wasn't merely a matter of "you have weapons, I have weapons, if you use yours I'll use mine."

If someone has a handgun pressed to the back of your head, and yours is still in it's holster, how useful is your handgun?

That's not even addressing how powerful the NAN folks were. Or more relevant, were perceived to be.

Given that the tactics they'd employed already indicate such to NOT be the case. Using things like tornadoes to take down a bunch of fighter planes when during the fan blades of their turbines into cotton candy would have been so much more funny......
I would deploy every conventional force I could.

Merely because someone did something is not a good indicator of what they CAN'T do.

Besides SR magic actually CAN'T do things like the GGD. It was assigned the power of plot, as was howling coyote. There is no spell or spirit ability which would allow you to stroll past a dozen people who were all taking wideburst shots at you. You'd have no dodge pool left, and even one hit on the test would see you eating lead. It was poorly thought out, poorly written, and all in all, a very stupid idea.

All that is irrelevant. It does not matter the slightest what magic can or cannot actually do.

It only mattered what people at the time THOUGHT it could do.

Nobody at the time KNEW what magic was capable of or it's limitations. That's my main point. Magic was a complete unknown. You have an enemy now that has already shown they can do things that seem impossible, and you DO NOT know what else they can do.

At the time, as far as the rest of the world knew, Daniel Howling Coyote had just become a god.

Which I can only see resulting in their extermination. When someone actively demonstrates they are a clear and present danger to you.... well, time to whip out the small pox, or any other number of diseases the first nations have been shown to historically have no resistance to.

Reality =/= Perception.

For all people knew, the NAN folks had become gods and could at any moment cause the world to erupt in fire if anyone pissed them off.

If the governments knew back then, what they found out later about the limitations of magic, yes, they probably would have responded with military force. (though not with WMDs - come on, the "enemy" is mixed in with your own citizens)

But they didn't know.

And that's the point. You don't attack an enemy if you know nothing about their capabilities.




-k

[Nath]

I'd deploy WMD's against anyone who did so to me, so yes.

Yeah, because using WMDs on your own territory is a brilliant idea. Now instead of losing that land to NAN, you lose it to radiation. You win a gold star.

And the other hand, its takes one or two field commanders thinking that way and eight years of counter-insurgency operations, and I'm sure you'll find a bunch of European, African or Asian-descent Americans to claim they have a drop of Amerindian blood or accept honorary membership of the local tribe to boost NAN demographics, rather than staying utterly loyal to the Washington government.