Where did all these indians come from?, Native American Nation Options

[Nath]

I'm surprised Azlan didn't ask for California Back.

Well, we only know what the final version of the Denver Treaty says. Maybe the Aztlan negotiators did try to get parts of California and Texas. Considering the stake, the negotiations probably were high-level hardball, with the big corps closely watching. ORO/Aztechnology maybe not felt ready to oppose all the other corporations on the Inter-Corporate Council, if those wanted business to go as usual in California, US. They waited for the second round to start in 2034.

[Wesley Street]

Most of this has been touched on upthread but a quick overview of the NAN set-up in SR will help with those who don't want to wade through petty arguing.

1. Read SoNA and Target: Wastelands as they reveal two very important points about population.
a. The majority of NAN residents aren't full blood Native though they have the rights of such.
b. Depending on the nation, some have populations of non-Natives (also referred to as "pinkskins") equal to nearly 50%. Many live in their own Anglo ghettos or reservations or amongst the Natives. Or in Salt Lake City.

2. NANs are named after the predominant tribe, not the only tribe.

3. Yes, the numbers don't reflect modern demographics and future trends. SR was written 20 years ago. The devs at the time made their best guess and it turned out to be wrong. It's like 'decking' and wrist phones. Get over it. Accuracy doesn't necessarily equate believability. Hollywood runs on this meme.

[Warlordtheft]

Don't forget that hispanics (presumably both white and non-white varieties) were considered "native" thanks to Atzlan being in the first formation of the NAN. That counts for a considerable amount of people west of the Miss.

Also, not all hispanics are mexicans/Aztlan or would not consider themselves as such.

[Pepsi Jedi]

To the people talking about using WMD's against the Nan. Please remember when the GGD happened. They didn't have a 'target' to use the WMD's on. They would be shooting the nukes at US cities. Populated by and large by US people. innocent US people. The NAN people were not all bunched together to form a target they could shoot at.

The only way for that to work, would be to ceed the land to the Nan. Wait for all the white people to move out (( and as pointed out here, nearly 50% of some of the nan nations are still white)) then once all YOUR people left the NAN, employ the weapons against them. And even THEN you're using WMD's on your own turf. (( or turf just a few months ago yours)) Ruining it.

In spite of comic book or action movie knee jerk. "Killing them because they kicked our butts and turning the area into a glowing crater for a few 1000 years isn't really a viable option.

There's a reason you don't see nukes used in war.

and the US isn't going to use BIO Weapons on it's own populace after campaigning for decades against it's use around the entire globe. Noone's going to deploy that in the US period.

One small note (( that's been hit on a bit)) Just because the NAN are Native American Nations, doesn't mean that's the only people living there. They removed a lare portion of the population who -would not follow the NAN rule-. The Native Americans lead the NAN. They have all sorts of people living there. Native Americans. Blacks. Whites. Asians. ect. The "Minority/Majority" numbers are just differentiated now.

[sabs]

How do you control a country where 50% of your population is in pinkskin internment camps.

Look at South Africa, that kind of thinking doesn't work long term.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I like the Nan, and don't have much of a problem with it. One of my justifications was that it was seen as unimportant land that the government did not seem to think it was worth fighting over. They were wrong since, caving in this regard also lost them the south. Still even removing WMD which is a bit more far fetched, I would think there would be significant sabotage of the area. If I were leaving, unless someone currently had a gun pointed at me, and not invisible monsters etc. I'd burn my house down at the least. If I knew how to take some infrastructure in a significant way I would. Still even with sabotage, that just slows them down, it does not stop them.

[Sixgun_Sage]

I like the Nan, and don't have much of a problem with it. One of my justifications was that it was seen as unimportant land that the government did not seem to think it was worth fighting over. They were wrong since, caving in this regard also lost them the south. Still even removing WMD which is a bit more far fetched, I would think there would be significant sabotage of the area. If I were leaving, unless someone currently had a gun pointed at me, and not invisible monsters etc. I'd burn my house down at the least. If I knew how to take some infrastructure in a significant way I would. Still even with sabotage, that just slows them down, it does not stop them.

It does make them significantly poorer though. Infrastructure sabotage is popular with insurgent groups for a reason, it is expensie to repair, immediately impacts the lives of the populace and makes the government in power look weak.

[Shinobi Killfist]

It does make them significantly poorer though. Infrastructure sabotage is popular with insurgent groups for a reason, it is expensie to repair, immediately impacts the lives of the populace and makes the government in power look weak.

Sure, but I can see that being rolled into the 30 years of history to 2050 as crap they already dealt with.

[Sixgun_Sage]

Sure, but I can see that being rolled into the 30 years of history to 2050 as crap they already dealt with.

Except it would pretty much cripple them economically and factionalize them internally, especially since there woulb me "never gonna take my land or my flag" types that would resist the sort of change we are talking about resisting, considering everything else that happened and the fact the NAN was surrounded by hostile nations and predatory megacorporations their survival as a state not directly controled by a megacorp is.... curious to say the least.

[Pepsi Jedi]

How do you control a country where 50% of your population is in pinkskin internment camps.

Look at South Africa, that kind of thinking doesn't work long term.

Because they're not in internment camps. They're out picking crops or working 'working class' jobs or what ever as a conditional second class citizen. (( Argueably)) what Hispanics an such do in Cali and Az and other states today. (( not saying it's right. Just saying it's done))

If they accepted the rightful rule of the NAN and agreed to stay in the country under the NAN's conditions they were allowed to stay. But being 'white' was no longer a member of the "ruling socio-economic class' in the NAN, it was regarded as a disenfranchised minority.

[Doc Chase]

If they accepted the rightful rule of the NAN and agreed to stay in the country under the NAN's conditions they were allowed to stay. But being 'white' was no longer a member of the "ruling socio-economic class' in the NAN, it was regarded as a disenfranchised minority.

Depended on the NANation they were in. Pueblo was a ton nicer to their Anglos the Ute nation was.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Right. Just painting with broad strokes as per explanation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Doc Chase]

Right. Just painting with broad strokes as per explanation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hooray! That's how houses get finished. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Acme]

And to be honest, the analogy of South Africa for Ute isn't far fetched. After all, Ute did collapse...


Anywho, I just have one more thing to say, and this will probably rile the anti-NAN crowd but oh well.

I don't think you're playing Shadowrun if you delete the NAN from the game.

Here's why. So much of North American flavor and history, and even a bit of the general flavor of the game is tied around the NAN's creation.

1. To begin with, the Great Ghost Dance showed people that magic was a force to be reckoned with, that it needed to be controlled or exploited. Without the GGD, I believe that magic would have been relegated to a curiosity for a long time, that you might have had the fundamentalist religions being the only ones to put limits on it. Oh sure, eventually there'd probably have been some major event down the line, but the GGD was only six years after magic fully returned so you had near immediate acceptance of it into the general mindset. After that, you have things like the UK revamping itself with the Office of Lord Protector and its magical rules that sorta backfired and codified the druids into taking over major portions of the government.

2. The flavor of North America would be drastically changed. Aside from Quebec (that had already supposedly seceded in 2000, though that got retconned into 2010 according to SWA), every major flavor would be altered.
A. Seattle would lose its prominence, since without it being the only enclave of the UCAS on the west coast after California was forcibly seceded, it wouldn't be as big a deal.
B. California would retain its prominence, and you wouldn't have the issues of the Imperial Navy getting a toehold into San Francisco, and even if Aztlan existed (covered below) they would not have been able to take over San Diego.
C. Tir Tairngere would probably not exist, because without Oregon already have been split off, the USA wouldn't have just let a bunch of elves suddenly declare the place their own.
D. Denver loses its prominence, the entire point if it in the Shadowrun world is the analogy of Berlin and its zones. Dunkelzahn and Ghostwalker would probably still lair near there, but Ghostwalker would not just be able to take it over.
E. There would be no reason for the US and Canada to combine, since the only reason it became the UCAS was the major excising of enough of both countries' land that they couldn't survive apart anymore.
F. That means the CAS never secedes, never kicks out South Florida into the Caribbean League. The combination of the UCAS is the entire lynchpin of the CAS secession.
G. Puerto Rico probably would not be let go into the CL either if the USA would still be whole.
H. Hawai'i never secedes without the impetus of the NAN's success.
I. Aztlan is probably about the most possibly likely thing to still exist since it was largely due to ORO's influence, but it would mostly likely not take the Aztec/heavy blood magic flavor it did. Aztlan became Aztlan because it figured it would hop onto the NAN train and get a good portion of the southwest out of it, when in the end all they got was a section of Denver and whatever they could get away with invading. And with a strong US, Mexico/Aztlan more than likely does not rise to the same prominence it does, with pressure on its northern border combined with the pressure with Amazonia, they don't try to get aggressive.

3. Ultimately what that would also mean is that the US would not lose as much in the global sphere as it would, especially after China disintegrates and Russia goes into semi-dormancy until Evo shows up. The only things that could challenge a non-balkanized US would be the Corps and Japan. I would argue that would have DRASTIC changes on the world, right down to US influence trying to vie for Japanese influence; the would would probably be divided between the nuyen and the dollar for major currency for example. I would also see a US that, while still shaken, would probably try to do what Imperial Japan did, try to exploit the weakness of a lot of other countries. Perhaps they end up taking over the Caribbean League for example, with Cuba's fall from communism and the collapse of the other countries.


As you can see, these three categories would represent a completely different paradigm for Shadowrun without the NAN's creation. It wouldn't be the same world at all; oh sure the idea of corporations and the need for runners would still be there, but there would be two major world powers still instead of just Imperial Japan being run by the Japanacorps. Major books would not be written, since all the North America books would just be about US/Canadian cities. I would even wager that the worldwide popularity of Shadowrun is in part BECAUSE the US isn't such a major power, that it isn't seen as an Amero-centric game and therefore be easier to adapt to other countries like it has.

So sure, you've got the right to not agree with the NAN and excise it, but in doing so I posit that you're only playing with the d6 system instead of Shadowrun as a whole.

[Swing Kid]

Here is how it happened. SR =/= The real world.

Really? That changes everything. Thanks for putting me back on track.

[Nath]

After that, you have things like the UK revamping itself with the Office of Lord Protector and its magical rules that sorta backfired and codified the druids into taking over major portions of the government.

Not exactly. The first and only Lord Protector to this date, Lord Marchment, was himself a druid.

[Mordinvan]

I like the Nan, and don't have much of a problem with it. One of my justifications was that it was seen as unimportant land that the government did not seem to think it was worth fighting over. They were wrong since, caving in this regard also lost them the south. Still even removing WMD which is a bit more far fetched, I would think there would be significant sabotage of the area. If I were leaving, unless someone currently had a gun pointed at me, and not invisible monsters etc. I'd burn my house down at the least. If I knew how to take some infrastructure in a significant way I would. Still even with sabotage, that just slows them down, it does not stop them.

You think that Canada would give up just about the entire country without a fight? I see....

[KarmaInferno]

You think that Canada would give up just about the entire country without a fight? I see....

The problem is, it's not a foreign nation you'd be fighting against.

It's a group of people mixed in with a population of your own citizens. On your own soil.

So that right there takes a lot of options off your list. You're limited to what weapons that won't cause mass collateral damage.

Against folks who apparently have attained godlike powers, and clearly have no such collateral damage concerns. And that you know can destroy entire landscapes with their minds, at a minimum.



-k

[pbangarth]

Actually, the part of the SR timeline that conflicts the most with reality is the breakup of Canada. Once the secession sentiment surfaced, we would have sat down and talked it all out, coming to an amicable solution that satisfied everyone. Then we would have welcomed refugees from all of the fractured states in North America and elsewhere, building a powerful economy, mixed with a caring social system, that would have soon rivalled that of Japan.

So SR really should have two superpowers: Japan and Canada.

[KarmaInferno]

Eh, all that they needed to do to keep Canadians from attacking was to say, "Sorry!".

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)





-k

[Shinobi Killfist]

You think that Canada would give up just about the entire country without a fight? I see....

I don't always equate land mass with country. For the US it was still a huge % of the land mass, it just wasn't as populated or worth while as the east coast. Canada is a bit more far fetched in that there is some serious natural resources in the regions taken. But I think Canada has a much smaller bargaining stick than the US does.

[pbangarth]

But I think Canada has a much smaller bargaining stick than the US does.

But a much larger bargaining cookie! With tea.

[Mordinvan]

It's a group of people mixed in with a population of your own citizens. On your own soil.

Who would be turned over faster then witches at a puritan convention. They could NOT mix with the rest of the population because they belong to a group which has attempted to start a nuclear war, destroyed a city, and use at least 4 WMDs against civilian populations...
They would have NO popular support, and MOST of the natives mixed into the normal population would try to kill them on sight for making their lives harder.

So that right there takes a lot of options off your list. You're limited to what weapons that won't cause mass collateral damage.

Since I'd mostly be dealing with people on the reserves.... no, not really.

Against folks who apparently have attained godlike powers, and clearly have no such collateral damage concerns. And that you know can destroy entire landscapes with their minds, at a minimum.

God like? Hardly, they blew up a few mountain, so have the chinese, and I don't bow down to them. Since I outnumber them 25-1, and even by any standard in SR they would at best have a tiny population of mages, which are "obviously" dealing with Satan himself, the rural, and highly christian population would likely engage in mass slaughter of the native populations on their own, to try and fend off the wrath of their god... I mean really, this was a terrible idea.

[KarmaInferno]

God like? Hardly, they blew up a few mountain, so have the chinese, and I don't bow down to them. Since I outnumber them 25-1, and even by any standard in SR they would at best have a tiny population of mages, which are "obviously" dealing with Satan himself, the rural, and highly christian population would likely engage in mass slaughter of the native populations on their own, to try and fend off the wrath of their god... I mean really, this was a terrible idea.

You are still missing the point.

You know the limitations of SR magic. You know what it can and can't do.

They didn't.

Magic was brand spanking new to the world. NOBODY knew what it was capable of. You were dealing with people that could set off earthquakes and volcanoes, thousands of miles away, just by jumping around a bit. People that could make people's heads explode just by thinking about it. People that could conjure terrible creatures of flame and fury at will.

For all the US government knew, the NAN folks might have been immune to any conventional firepower that could be thrown. The NAN folks might ALL be mages now, every single one of them - from reports, most were involved in the Dance, doesn't that make them all mages? The NAN might be able to read everyone's minds and know everything you're planning. The USA have a new enemy of which you know next to nothing about their capabilities.

It's not "just" blowing up a few mountains. Anyone with enough explosives can do that.

It the fact that they did so with the power of their minds. And nobody knew what else they were capable of.

That is what scared the hell out of people.

To a mundane person that up until that moment had always thought real magic was a fairy tale fantasy, someone who could throw bolts of fire, summon magical creatures, and destroy people at whim, IS godlike.

A guy who has bombs next door is one thing. People could deal with that. Lynch mobs could deal with that.

But a guy next door who can turn people inside out just by waving his hand?

I'm sure there were some local uprisings attacking NAN groups. They almost certainly broke up real damn fast when their leaders started erupting in flame and exploding into bloody giblets.

Heck, even a simple threat like, "You have children, families at home, yes? Leave this place now. Or they get turned into charcoal in five minutes." would have given a lot of people pause. For all anyone knew, that kind of thing was entirely possible.



-k

[Acme]

Not exactly. The first and only Lord Protector to this date, Lord Marchment, was himself a druid.

That's precisely what I meant. It was supposedly created to control magic in the UK but all it did was let the foxes run the henhouse to use a bad analogy.