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> Abstracting Ammo, or details, details, details....
Draco18s
post Oct 13 2010, 07:27 PM
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QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Oct 13 2010, 02:21 PM) *
What is this 4E you are talking about? Surely you are joking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)


I will admit that I still have issues with 4E D&D, but it does have some concept of balance. I think most of the things I don't like are things that weren't followed through with by Wizards (the zombie dogs for one, "all levels being interesting" another) but the system itself is very well constructed.
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Mayhem_2006
post Oct 13 2010, 07:32 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 13 2010, 07:56 PM) *
Oh, agreed. I just said that I recognized the distinction, made a comment about fixing that error, and then still finding it odd.

Anyway, my group's next D&D campaign will...mmm...be entertaining. Oh, they'll still be the heroes, sure. But they'll get their faces rubbed in the muck a lot.
*Giggles like a little girl at the number of times the module informs the GM to "strip the PC of their equipment"*


Well, if you like rubbing PC faces in the muck, play WFRP (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Starting equipment: 1D10 dead rats...
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capt.pantsless
post Oct 13 2010, 07:33 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 13 2010, 01:27 PM) *
I will admit that I still have issues with 4E D&D, but it does have some concept of balance. I think most of the things I don't like are things that weren't followed through with by Wizards (the zombie dogs for one, "all levels being interesting" another) but the system itself is very well constructed.


4E is crap, and Wizards sucks. Pathfinder all the way.

Alrighty then. This threads been full derailed. My congratulations to all involved, we can move on to the next one.
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Mäx
post Oct 13 2010, 07:36 PM
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QUOTE (The Grue Master @ Oct 13 2010, 08:31 PM) *
If you are scavenging guns and ammo off the fallen to use right then I sincerely hope your character ends up taking a dirt nap (or at least losing a hand). Only the reckless and ignorant use found firearm if given any choice in the matter. This is simply because you have no way of knowing how well maintained it is, the overall quality of the weapon, and in the realm of Shadowrun, if the gun is going to blow up in your hand. The same is true for ammo: is it what it looks like, what ballistic properties does it have, was it made in Pakistan by children? All of these questions should be answered before you ever consider picking up a gun and firing it. If you do scavenge guns and ammo from a run, please take them home, inspect them, test them, then use them.

Oh yeah, becouse obviliously professional security guards have no idea how to maintain their guns and they use ammo made by brain dead pakistanian children becouse those are just cheaper then the ones their own factory churns out by the millions next door (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
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Faraday
post Oct 13 2010, 07:37 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Oct 12 2010, 08:33 AM) *
What about this: you pick up skittles equal to your ammo, and eat them when you shoot. Also, have a handy reference chart to see how much ammo you gain and lose.

Probably best not to do this when you're running a drone rigger. Or a Dakka Sam/Adept

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 13 2010, 12:05 PM) *
Have druids made it to 4E yet? I haven't seen them, but they've got just about everything else.
Druids got introduced in the PHB 2, along with bards (and bards are good now! especially half-elf bards)
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 13 2010, 07:49 PM
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Those pro-security and Red Sams have bio-locked guns anyway.
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capt.pantsless
post Oct 13 2010, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Oct 13 2010, 01:36 PM) *
Oh yeah, because obliviously professional security guards have no idea how to maintain their guns and they use ammo made by brain dead Palestinian children because those are just cheaper then the ones their own factory churns out by the millions next door (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)



There's plenty of other sources of lootable guns besides Corpsec. Gangers, Mafia goons, etc. Aside from that, not every professional security team is going to maintain their weapons perfectly, it's one great way to cut-costs.


That said, I don't think I'd ever put an exploding gun at the feet of a PC, unless they were warned (via a perception test) that it might not fire correctly.
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KarmaInferno
post Oct 13 2010, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE (Faraday @ Oct 13 2010, 03:37 PM) *
Probably best not to do this when you're running a drone rigger. Or a Dakka Sam/Adept

Druids got introduced in the PHB 2, along with bards (and bards are good now! especially half-elf bards)


I have an Orc Bard.

He has a specialization in performance screaming.

And he can smack talk you to death. Literally.




-k
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Kruger
post Oct 13 2010, 09:02 PM
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QUOTE (Mayhem_2006 @ Oct 13 2010, 11:32 AM) *
Well, if you like rubbing PC faces in the muck, play WFRP (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Starting equipment: 1D10 dead rats...

Now there was a game with no pretense of balance, haha. Had a ton of fun playing it, but at some point you just had to quit and start over because the Dwarf Warrior would become impossible to wound and the Elf or the Human warrior would become impossible to hit. Everyone who wasn't one of those just died in every encounter.
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sabs
post Oct 13 2010, 09:06 PM
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Except for the guy who got super lucky and rolled the Yahtzee of Wizard's Apprentice.
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Ascalaphus
post Oct 13 2010, 11:54 PM
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The reason I suggested using skittles or suchlike to represent ammo is this; If you're gonna make things like ammo count, help your players visualize. Whether that's mana or life or action points - seeing your pile of Stuff Counters shrink while on the run really drives home the idea of running out of resources.

But yeah, a rigger could certainly end up with a serious sugar rush *eg*
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Faraday
post Oct 13 2010, 11:58 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Oct 13 2010, 04:54 PM) *
The reason I suggested using skittles or suchlike to represent ammo is this; If you're gonna make things like ammo count, help your players visualize. Whether that's mana or life or action points - seeing your pile of Stuff Counters shrink while on the run really drives home the idea of running out of resources.

But yeah, a rigger could certainly end up with a serious sugar rush *eg*

So how many bags of skittles does it take to represent 5 IPs of full-auto fire with a minigun? (75 rounds)
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Ascalaphus
post Oct 14 2010, 12:51 AM
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QUOTE (Faraday @ Oct 14 2010, 01:58 AM) *
So how many bags of skittles does it take to represent 5 IPs of full-auto fire with a minigun? (75 rounds)


Rigging is hard work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 14 2010, 01:22 AM
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Dumpshock is the result of Diabetes.
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Draco18s
post Oct 14 2010, 01:24 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 13 2010, 08:22 PM) *
Diabetes is the result of Dumpshock.


FTFY. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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The Grue Master
post Oct 14 2010, 10:33 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Oct 13 2010, 03:36 PM) *
Oh yeah, becouse obviliously professional security guards have no idea how to maintain their guns and they use ammo made by brain dead pakistanian children becouse those are just cheaper then the ones their own factory churns out by the millions next door (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)


If they were so smart, they wouldn't be sec guards. And child labor is the definition of the bottom line (and corps love the bottom line). But more to the point, I wouldn't risk my life (or my fingers) on the assumption that the guy I just wasted was really smart/competent/well-paid and so forth...
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Saint Sithney
post Oct 14 2010, 10:52 AM
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Microetching your bullets is a monumental waste of time.

Jack middle man goes to the store and buys 10,000 bullets. He reports them stolen. Gets paid.
Rinse. Repeat.

The government is too weak to stop him. The corps have no right to stop him. They kill him, there's someone else waiting in line to take his place.

Gun running is stupid easy.
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Brainpiercing7.6...
post Oct 14 2010, 11:14 AM
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QUOTE (The Grue Master @ Oct 14 2010, 12:33 PM) *
If they were so smart, they wouldn't be sec guards. And child labor is the definition of the bottom line (and corps love the bottom line). But more to the point, I wouldn't risk my life (or my fingers) on the assumption that the guy I just wasted was really smart/competent/well-paid and so forth...


If there's another guy shooting at you, and your gun is out of ammo?

That's ridiculous. You don't do it if you don't have to, obviously, but there is still no game mechanic (I know of) that penalises such actions. (You COULD do stuff like define degredation by increasing the threshhold for glitches to 2s. Extreme degredation to 3s. But those are - to my less than complete knowledge - house rules you have to make WITH YOUR GROUP.)
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Ascalaphus
post Oct 14 2010, 11:53 AM
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Machines that produce mechanical parts have been getting more precise for decades now. I should expect that mid-level quality and better guns and ammo are reliable, no question.
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Doc Chase
post Oct 14 2010, 12:18 PM
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QUOTE (The Grue Master @ Oct 14 2010, 10:33 AM) *
If they were so smart, they wouldn't be sec guards. And child labor is the definition of the bottom line (and corps love the bottom line). But more to the point, I wouldn't risk my life (or my fingers) on the assumption that the guy I just wasted was really smart/competent/well-paid and so forth...


That's a wildly uneducated statement. Just because someone is in security doesn't mean they're dumb, or not well paid, or incompetent.

Security companies nowadays can also cover information security as well as physical. Companies that do both get some fantastic contracts - and any security company that arms its employees is going to train them how to properly maintain and use the firearms they're issued. Chances are the firearm on that corpsec guard's body is better maintained than yours.

To not train their people is a liability in both PR and legality. A well-paid guard is a highly-trained one. A highly-trained one is more often than not a responsible one. A responsible one is more often than not a smart one, and a smart one can still get support to put one in the back of your head while you're trying to get through the door he's turned into a barricade. Always assume the enemy is smarter than you when they have the home field advantage.

If the guard is not well trained, he won't stick around when he's being shot at.
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 14 2010, 02:11 PM
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And his gun is bio-locked anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Max, usually your special brand of English is interesting and innocuous, but… "brain dead pakistanian children", really? It's 'brain-dead Pakistani children', dude! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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capt.pantsless
post Oct 14 2010, 02:37 PM
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QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Oct 14 2010, 05:14 AM) *
You COULD do stuff like define degredation by increasing the threshhold for glitches to 2s. Extreme degredation to 3s. But those are - to my less than complete knowledge - house rules you have to make WITH YOUR GROUP.


I'd agree completely - if you and the rest of your group digs on this sort of thinking, conjure-up some house-rules about gun maintenance. Unless you are routinely asking your players to roll a Firearms + Logic test to do routine gun-cleaning and maintenance after each time the gun gets fired, you arn't really simulating the whole gun-ownership experience. There's no rules in the books for this kinda stuff, and I'll venture a guess as to why: For most people, it isn't very fun.

Ignoring gun-maintenance is just one of the many things that gets glossed-over in SR. How many of you track the petrochem level of your Bulldog Vans? Oil changes? Tire-rotation? Sure, if the team was driving into the middle of the desert where there wasn't any civilization, I might add some drama by making them plan ahead for fuel-useage, but aside that, I'd much rather play the game than deal with the mundane issues that I have to deal with in real-life.

This isn't real-life, it's Shadowrun, it's supposed to be BTL.
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Draco18s
post Oct 14 2010, 02:37 PM
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QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Oct 14 2010, 07:18 AM) *
That's a wildly uneducated statement. Just because someone is in security doesn't mean they're dumb, or not well paid, or incompetent.


"What makes me a good demoman? Well if I was a bad demoman, I wouldn't be sittin' here, discussin' it with you now would I?"
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Mäx
post Oct 14 2010, 02:38 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 14 2010, 04:11 PM) *
Max, usually your special brand of English is interesting and innocuous, but… "brain dead pakistanian children", really? It's 'brain-dead Pakistani children', dude! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

The brain dead part is there becouse the non brain dead ones actually produce perfectly good ammo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Doc Chase
post Oct 14 2010, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 14 2010, 02:37 PM) *
"What makes me a good demoman? Well if I was a bad demoman, I wouldn't be sittin' here, discussin' it with you now would I?"


"Lookit me. I'm a black Scottish Cyclops. There's more <censored> than there are o' me."
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