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> Record flaws, Not quite a criminal record
Siege
post Mar 9 2004, 03:35 AM
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Characters with coming from certain agencies will have a file on record regarding the character's abilities, training, biological records and implants or magic, if applicable.

-2 Agency Record

Examples include:
UCAS Army
DocWagon
Renraku Corp
CAS Naval Services

Unlike a criminal record, these files won't appear on a standard search, but the information is on file somewhere.

-Siege
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kevyn668
post Mar 9 2004, 03:46 AM
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You sold me on it.

It also would expain where the char in question got his/her special trainning and/ or gear. I've always felt railroaded in my backgrounds by that....

But if you weren't going to require it for skills/gear, you might want to reduce to -1. The info is in a fairly secure database and thus not easy to access. Plus, the searcher would have to be specificaly looking for that individual in that database. Right?
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Siege
post Mar 9 2004, 04:05 AM
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Yes, but it's also a comprehensive and thorough listing of the character.

1. Cyberware (if any)
2. Skills, schools and performance record
3. Psych profile
4. Magical ability, if any
5. Blood type/DNA
6. Fingerprints

Which means it wouldn't pop up immediately, but if someone did find it -- the character is in for a world of hurt.

-Siege
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Fortune
post Mar 9 2004, 04:19 AM
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Not knocking the idea, but if this is considered a Flaw, then anyone having a real SIN should also have a Flaw of equivalent, if not greater level.
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Kagetenshi
post Mar 9 2004, 04:25 AM
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Not bad, I may use it... Fortune has a point, but it's a point that we conveniently ignore for the sake of gameplay.

~J
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kevyn668
post Mar 9 2004, 04:27 AM
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yeah, but its limited because of its accessablilty. In theory, anyway. I guess it depends on high up in the system you were before you left.

Security Guard/Grunt: no prob.
Security Chief/Non-com: minor prob
Assistant Director of External Security/Officer/Agent: uhhh...prob.
Special Forces/Special Agent: prob
Government Spook/Undercover Op: definite prob
Government Wet Boy: Problem.

I see where youre coming from but its not like it has a ritual sample. Also, its not a universal numerical system. Most likely its a verbal assessment: "Highly proficient in smalls arms, hand to hand, demolitions, if you dropped him off in the arctic circle in a speedo he'd show up two days later with tan and a fist full of pecos, etc.." Even if it was a rank it would be subjective to the governing body. ("Renraku certifies him as a level 9 hand to hand expert" It would only make sense if the person that acquired the file had a grounding in the ranking system)

Maybe Two levels? -1 and -2? The higher level would have more precise details about the individual's capabilities?
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Kagetenshi
post Mar 9 2004, 04:37 AM
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Government wetboy is a problem no matter what.

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Siege
post Mar 9 2004, 04:39 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Mar 9 2004, 04:19 AM)
Not knocking the idea, but if this is considered a Flaw, then anyone having a real SIN should also have a Flaw of equivalent, if not greater level.

True -- which is why most runners drop any real SIN in favor of an easily-discarded one.

But I would also argue the benefits provided from having a SIN outweigh the drawbacks gained. If you have a SIN, you have so many more options than the SINless.

By comparison, a SIN doesn't carry the same depth of information for ready inspection. If Lone Star pulls Jack's civilian SIN, it gives a basic profile.

If Lone Star pulls Jack's military record, they find out a great deal more information than what might be stored on a standard or civilian SIN.

-Siege

Edit: I actually thought -2/-4 with a ritual sample, but I saw the flamethrowers heating up behind me. :grinbig:
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kevyn668
post Mar 9 2004, 04:50 AM
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QUOTE
Edit: I actually thought -2/-4 with a ritual sample, but I saw the flamethrowers heating up behind me.


Ahh, the Perceptive Edge.... :D
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Fortune
post Mar 9 2004, 04:51 AM
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QUOTE (Siege)
By comparison, a SIN doesn't carry the same depth of information for ready inspection. If Lone Star pulls Jack's civilian SIN, it gives a basic profile.

If Lone Star pulls Jack's military record, they find out a great deal more information than what might be stored on a standard or civilian SIN.

I disagree. Jack's military record will be available to Lone Star with a normal SIN, as will his Medical Record, Criminal Record, Banking History, Education Record, etc., etc...
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kevyn668
post Mar 9 2004, 04:53 AM
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Yes, if he's a grunt. But if we go back to the "level of power" arguement, all that information may not be as readily available.
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BitBasher
post Mar 9 2004, 04:56 AM
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My problem with this flaw is this: if the bad guys never run the check ad they never find it, then it's not worth points. If they do find it its worth a hell of a lot more than 2. This is the kind of thing that can really, really screw a character's career.
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kevyn668
post Mar 9 2004, 05:09 AM
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QUOTE
BitBasher Posted on Mar 9 2004, 04:56 AM
  My problem with this flaw is this: if the bad guys never run the check ad they never find it, then it's not worth points. If they do find it its worth a hell of a lot more than 2. This is the kind of thing that can really, really screw a character's career. 


How? It doesn't seem that bad in its own right. It all comes down to the GM's ability and desire to take advantage of a situation. Also, it depends on if the GM just assumes that the "bad guys" are capable of acquiring the info or actually rolls for it.

Which can be explained in exisiting cannon by a sufficiently powerful/motivated/knowledgeable Enemy.

Even if we assume that the GM allows the "bad guys" access to the info, we now have a group of enimies that knows your character is good w/ a gun/his fists/can toss a manaball/etc...and has a Smartlink/wired 'flexes/spurs/etc...

Most of things they would know if any of their foot soldiers survived the first encounter. Even then it only comes into play if the "bad guys" devise some sort of "batman-deathmachine" specifically designed to thwart the "good guy's" special abilities and cyber. And leave them with only an inept guard to ensure they shuffle loose the mortal coil.

Its not a flaw that would affect the everyday life of character. Like the Criminal Record Flaw. Lone Star has immediate and permenant access to that character and his past. The character with this new flaw is not required to "check in". Maybe his was disavowed or something....
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broho_pcp
post Mar 9 2004, 05:49 AM
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Most flaws only apply if the GM wants them to apply, just like this case. The GM of the game has control of if and when the "bad guys" run a check, and if they succeed.

(edit) I'm to dang slow
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Zazen
post Mar 9 2004, 06:13 AM
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I liken this to a corp SIN. Yeah, it'll suck when you start mucking with Renraku's assets, but it won't really be an issue when you're on Ares's shit list.

And since you don't get any of the benefits of a SIN, it might be worth flaw points. It's hard to feel like a man when you have to beg other people to buy beer for you ;)
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Siege
post Mar 9 2004, 08:30 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Siege @ Mar 9 2004, 03:39 PM)
By comparison, a SIN doesn't carry the same depth of information for ready inspection.  If Lone Star pulls Jack's civilian SIN, it gives a basic profile.

If Lone Star pulls Jack's military record, they find out a great deal more information than what might be stored on a standard or civilian SIN.

I disagree. Jack's military record will be available to Lone Star with a normal SIN, as will his Medical Record, Criminal Record, Banking History, Education Record, etc., etc...

Is there a canon listing of what a SIN actually covers?

I've never thought of it as being as all-encompassing as you describe.

The BBB (not the defining source) only mentions that Law Enforcement can determine from your SIN:

1. Birthdate
2. State of origin
3. Initials

A criminal SIN is more comprehensive, listing: photograph, finger/palm prints, possibly retinal scan, voice sample and tissue sample. (And, I assume, criminal history)

-Siege
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simonw2000
post Mar 9 2004, 08:59 AM
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Anyone remember that "Pizza for the SINned" thread? :D
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Voran
post Mar 9 2004, 02:34 PM
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Something I touched upon briefly in one of my posted topics, was my wondering just how well is information shared between governments and corporations in regards to SIN or service record type information. It would seem to stand to reason that the FBI database isn't as freely accessible from all locations in the US as it was before, since now the US is UCAS, CAS, NAN, etc etc. You can bet all the databases that remained in UCAS control wouldn't be as readily accessible before.

Granted I don't have a comparision I can make with real life, since its not my field of expertise, but I imagine that even nowadays, the service record of some US serviceman, isn't as readily accessible to our allied nations, much less our competitors. I see that sort of attitude being likely carried on, to even more paranoid extreme, in the SR timeline.

I agree the information would likely be theoretically available. Since part of the consequences of the SR timeline is much more information is stored somewhere in the matrix. Sure some of the really important stuff is stored offline or only available through multiple tiers of security or somesuch, but its less rare that the information be not online somewhere.
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Fahr
post Mar 9 2004, 04:17 PM
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I actually work dealing with criminal history databases and SIN, I mean Drivers License checks...

right now, if you run a DL you get back wether it is valid or not and the information that is listed on the card itself (birthday, hair, eyes, height weight, organ donor) you can access this info from a DL or from a name and birthday, or from a social security number.

it doesn't tell you where they were born (though I can see why a SIN would) It will tell you if they are wanted on any outstanding felonies and class B or greater misdemeanors (most of the time local only to the county, unless extradition is requested - it's no good picking some guy up if you are not supposed to transport him, cost consideration) and it will tell you his criminal history overview if he has one, as well as a description of any scars marks, tattoos and suchlike (only if they have a criminal history) it does not tell you specifics about his charges or what he has been arrested for in the past, just that he has convictions, or outstanding warrants.

currently, the police can not see military records at all, but the army can get Criminal histories and the same info as the police.

local requests are processed loclay first, than at the state level and then at the national level, then possibly interpol. you can get up to 4 responses to a single request.

so there is an overview of how this works IRL. ;)

-Mike R.

edit for typos.

This post has been edited by Fahr: Mar 9 2004, 04:19 PM
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Lantzer
post Mar 9 2004, 04:28 PM
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QUOTE (Siege)
[QUOTE=Fortune,Mar 9 2004, 04:51 AM]
Is there a canon listing of what a SIN actually covers?

I've never thought of it as being as all-encompassing as you describe.

The BBB (not the defining source) only mentions that Law Enforcement can determine from your SIN:

1. Birthdate
2. State of origin
3. Initials

A criminal SIN is more comprehensive, listing: photograph, finger/palm prints, possibly retinal scan, voice sample and tissue sample. (And, I assume, criminal history)

I think you are confusing the information that is encoded within the SIN itself (You listed the info that goes into the creation of the actual number), and the information that is accesible if you know the SIN.

The first 3 are encoded into the SIN itself. Everything else about you is in the various databases.

Judging by the sort of information that is available for interrogation by the standard credstick reader ("I'm sorry sir, our system is having some trouble with your ID - Could you please tell me what your college dorm was? For verification only, of course..."), a LOT of information is available in those databases, for those who care to look.

Lonestar is a multinational Mega. They have as much ability to look at your records as any bank. Probably more - I know I'd want good info if I was handing law enforcement contracts.
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TechnoDruid
post Mar 9 2004, 05:25 PM
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Really, the best references to what exactly a SIN involves are in SR3 pgs 238-239 and SSG pg 37. These are decent, but still quite vague.
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ShadowPhoenix
post Mar 9 2004, 05:32 PM
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Yeah from what I understand, the SIN itself is a generated number off a hash of your personal data, a Lone Star can get your Birthdate, Initials, and State of origin off the SIN itself, the rest of the information is cross indexed in the SIN database, so the sin is full of pointers in a huge relational database with everything about you in it. We're talking all your prior jobs, all purchases you've ever made and from where, your bank accounts and credit balances, vehicle registrations, permits for weapons, tissue sample, picture, voice and thumb/palm print, criminal record, school records, medical records, anything that you are, is in the SIN, I would imagine that certain things in the SIN are probably encrypted to maintain corporate secrets, but they'd probably still be listed and anyone with a good level of decryption and a drek-hot decker can dig it up.
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BitBasher
post Mar 9 2004, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE
it doesn't tell you where they were born
The above quote was made regarding SSN's, which is incorrect. The first 3 digits of your SSN is a code for the location of birth. For example 530 is Las Vegas. The area may be wider than Las Vegas, but I know that it's geographically linked.
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ShadowPhoenix
post Mar 9 2004, 06:44 PM
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yeah, the first 3 digits I think are the state code or state/city and the second number is like a county or something, then the last 4. I know most people born around my hometown in Oklahoma had 44* as their first 2 digits.
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Fahr
post Mar 9 2004, 07:04 PM
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yes, but a DL check doesn't give you a SSN.

if you already have a SSN than of course you could decode a general location, but only if you know the system.

-Mike R.
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