Suprise tests, The corner cases Options

[kjones]

Let's say Alice, who has an Initiative score of 10, is setting up an ambush for Bob, who has an Initiative score of 14.

First comes the suprise roll. Alice rolls 10+6=16 dice and gets 3 successes. Bad luck for Alice! Bob rolls 14 dice and gets 4 successes. Lucky Bob! Looks like he'll evade her trap.

But wait, first they roll initiative. Alice's luck returns, and she gets 6 hits on 10 dice, for an initiative score of 16. Bob's luck runs out, and he only gets one measly hit on 14 dice - he'll go on 15.

Alice goes first - but even though she was waiting in ambush for Bob, and even though she saw him coming, and waited for him to get close before shooting him or whatever, she can't act against him.

So how the hell do you deal with that? In game, what is going on? It would make more sense if Bob won the suprise test and initiative - then he saw through the ambush and beat Alice at her own game. But what do you do in this case?

I know this is a pretty unlikely case, but it becomes more plausible if somebody spends Edge.

[Ramorta]

SR4 Page 156, under Ambushing states:

"Ambushing characters, however, are automatically not suprised by the characters they are ambushing--assuming they are aware of the movement and actions of their target(s)."

[Aku]

2 things. first,

Ambushing characters are not surprised by the characters they are ambushing...assuming they are aware of the movement, i.e., not hiding behind a door waiting for it to open, but not sure when it will...

Secondly, from the same place

not that it is possible that the character(s) performing the ambush...should be given a free perception test to notice whats coming, if he succeeds, he knows whats coming, and can preempt the ambush, if he fails, the game master should delay his action until the ambush commences.

[deek]

Alice is not allowed to react to anything Bob does on his surprise action.

I've had instances when you have more people involved in the ambush and what ends up happening is the higher initiative people, but surprised, just can't react to the ones doing the ambush. Sometimes that means they lose an action and wait until the next pass and other times they can do stuff against other opponents that weren't a part of the ambush.

In this case, Alice gets the actions in her pass, but if she isn't aware of Bob, she can't do anything. She may just move through the "trap" or perform other actions, but nothing as it relates to Bob. Now when Bob does act, I believe Alice being surprised means that Bob is rolling dice unopposed, so all Alice can do is soak damage.

[Doc Chase]

Other way around, deek. Bob's the one getting ambushed, not Alice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[deek]

Okay, I misunderstood.

Well, then back to the original example, I don't see the problem. Alice tried to ambush Bob. Bob wasn't surprised. Alice goes first in initiative, so a normal combat ensues.

The person that is getting ambushed doesn't get any "surprise benefits" just because they were the target of the ambush.

[Yerameyahu]

I find the surprise rules kind of wacky every time I try to use them. It's hard to wrap your head around knowing things are happening, but not being allowed to react. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kjones]

Okay, I misunderstood.

Well, then back to the original example, I don't see the problem. Alice tried to ambush Bob. Bob wasn't surprised. Alice goes first in initiative, so a normal combat ensues.

The person that is getting ambushed doesn't get any "surprise benefits" just because they were the target of the ambush.

The problem here isn't, "Bob wasn't surprised". The problem here is, "Bob one the surprise test, so Alice is surprised, even though Alice is the one ambushing."

However, this is apparently not how the rules actually work, and this is a result of a reading comprehension fail on my behalf. Nothing to see here, move along citizens.

[deek]

Your example would work if the GM decided that both Alice and Bob stumbled onto each other and he wanted them to roll a surprise test, but that's obviously not the same as an ambush.

I get what you were getting at now, but you are correct, that's not how the rules actually work.

An interesting topic, though.