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> Longarms in combat
spasheridan
post Oct 20 2010, 11:44 PM
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A common enough scenario in my games - a character is sauntering through an area with a rifle in their hands. Suddenly a ghoul runs up and starts to claw the player before the character gets to react. On the players first available pass they usually want to pull the trigger and open fire.

All I can see are the "point blank" and "in melee" modifiers to the firearms check.

IMO it just isn't reasonable to point a longarm at something that's trying to claw you, but I'm not sure if the rules support this.

My thoughts: Shooting at someone you are engaged with gives the target a melee defense roll instead of just the ranged attack defense roll. Is this supported by the rules?

Another scenario: You've fired you longarm into the belly of ghoul #1. Ghoul #2 decides to disarm you. The ghoul wants to grab your rifle and rip it out of your hands. Is there a rule to help adjudicate this interaction?
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Oct 20 2010, 11:58 PM
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QUOTE (spasheridan @ Oct 20 2010, 08:44 PM) *
A common enough scenario in my games - a character is sauntering through an area with a rifle in their hands. Suddenly a ghoul runs up and starts to claw the player before the character gets to react. On the players first available pass they usually want to pull the trigger and open fire.

All I can see are the "point blank" and "in melee" modifiers to the firearms check.

IMO it just isn't reasonable to point a longarm at something that's trying to claw you, but I'm not sure if the rules support this.

My thoughts: Shooting at someone you are engaged with gives the target a melee defense roll instead of just the ranged attack defense roll. Is this supported by the rules?

Another scenario: You've fired you longarm into the belly of ghoul #1. Ghoul #2 decides to disarm you. The ghoul wants to grab your rifle and rip it out of your hands. Is there a rule to help adjudicate this interaction?


My thoughts: Shooting at someone you are engaged with gives the target a melee defense roll instead of just the ranged attack defense roll. Is this supported by the rules?

Yes it is. AFB right now, but I think disarm is described in the core book, if not, check arsenal, the chapter called "more ways to die".
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 21 2010, 01:05 AM
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'Attacker in Melee' seems good enough (total -1); it *is* hard to miss someone that close. I mean, I see your point, but do we really want to penalize (a) poor crappy Longarms, (b) shotguns against ghouls?! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Unless you want the ghoul to take the gun, just use a Called Shot to "Knock something out of the target’s grasp." (SR4A p161)
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kzt
post Oct 21 2010, 02:00 AM
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How exactly does a ghoul run up on someone carrying a rifle without the guy with the rifle being able to shoot him as he closes? Does he do this invisibly? It takes less than a second to shoulder and shoot when you have the gun in your hands already.

If you want to argue "reasonable" be sure to consider both sides.
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 21 2010, 02:05 AM
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Obviously, he jumps down from the ceiling behind him. Duh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Snow_Fox
post Oct 21 2010, 02:08 AM
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or out of a siding.

There are no rules for this but it's a good point. In taking the golan Heights the Israeli's did well in close action with the Syrians because they had the very short Uzi while the syrians were hampered in just the way you describe while using the AK-47
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SleepIncarnate
post Oct 21 2010, 02:11 AM
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You should probably specify rifles, as shotguns are also a form of longarm and are designed specifically for close combat, a.k.a. the ghoul chomping on your squishy bits.
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 21 2010, 02:12 AM
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The AK-47's not even a Longarm, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think it's a mistake to try and make the system too realistic, though. If a ghoul surprises you, they get a Surprise test already.

Depends on the shotgun. Some are made specifically for shooting down birds, and they're mostly slug-loaded in SR4 anyway.
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SleepIncarnate
post Oct 21 2010, 02:13 AM
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While we're on the topic, related but different question: if his first reaction was to use the rifle to butt stroke the ghoul, would he use his longarms skill or have to default for not having exotic melee weapon: longarms?
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 21 2010, 02:15 AM
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It's a club, AFAIK. You and your dirty military terminology.
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Snow_Fox
post Oct 21 2010, 02:16 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 20 2010, 09:12 PM) *
The AK-47's not even a Longarm, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think it's a mistake to try and make the system too realistic, though. If a ghoul surprises you, they get a Surprise test already.

oh I agree, I was just answering the question.
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 21 2010, 02:19 AM
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Another way to look at this is, how does someone use a Reach weapon in the same circumstance ("a ghoul runs up and starts to claw the player before the character gets to react")? Dangerous thinking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Ghremdal
post Oct 21 2010, 02:22 AM
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I thought the rule was that when you are in a melee with someone, and that someone tries to shoot you, you get a defense bonus equal to your melee skill?

So if unarmed you would get Reaction+Unarmed, or Reaction+Unarmed+Dodge for full defense.

This is to represent pushing the gun out of the way, etc..
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 21 2010, 02:29 AM
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That sounds like a house rule, and did the OP mention it earlier? It seems reasonable, if that's what your table wants.
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Jhaiisiin
post Oct 21 2010, 03:23 AM
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No no no. You're all focusing on the wrong issue here.

He says it's a "common enough scenario" that his PC's get ambushed by ghouls. How are they not all dead by now from infection?
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 21 2010, 03:25 AM
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Presumably, they're different PCs each time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Oct 21 2010, 03:53 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 21 2010, 12:25 AM) *
Presumably, they're different PCs each time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Or they are ghouls already killing other ghouls.

It's a tough of a ghoul-eat-ghoul-world.
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spasheridan
post Oct 21 2010, 07:06 AM
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Thanks for the replies. We have a modified game here with a few scenario rules - infected isn't as big of a deal for the PCs as it is in standard games.

Back to the rules though - my opinion is that if you are using your rifle or shotgun as a club or a parrying device (what you would probably do if you were getting attacked in melee) it would be difficult to switch to aiming the gun. The melee rules are loose in SR4, but I tend to think of engaged characters as being activley engaged ala D&D where firing a ranged weapon in melee provokes attacks because you cease defending yourself to make the attack.

I'm thinking about this from 2 perspectives:

1) Melee attackers already get the short end of the stick with reduced damage codes and fewer attacks vs a higher defense. In my critter heavy campaign this makes many of the critters I want to use even more foddery than usual. The penalty for shooting a grizzly bear in the face with a hunting rifle as it chews on your leg is -1 dp. This seems low.

2) Cinematic, I want the game to be action packed. I also want to encourage variety - but the big guns are awesome and if there's no penalty to using a rifle while engaged vs using a pistol I think the obvious choice is going to be the rifle - same attacks with higher damage. Also having a tiger jump you and knock your rifle out of your hands or having a ghoul put you in a headlock so his friend can start eating your arm... just more entertaining combat options.

I'll check out Arsenal and the More Ways to Die to see if they have some good options.
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ProfGast
post Oct 21 2010, 07:08 AM
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Or all his characters are.... for example... drakes. HMHVV Immunity!
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Kliko
post Oct 21 2010, 07:52 AM
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Or you use bayonet... usig the polarms skill (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Oct 21 2010, 08:24 AM
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QUOTE (spasheridan @ Oct 21 2010, 01:44 AM) *
My thoughts: Shooting at someone you are engaged with gives the target a melee defense roll instead of just the ranged attack defense roll. Is this supported by the rules?

That's the Savage Worlds way. Additionally, there, only pistols can be used in melee, longarms can't.

In SR RAW, you are free to use your Panther assault cannon when swarmed by a pack of rabid dogs. You don't even invoke the option of an interception attacks, as those are only for movement.
Unless you houserule it your way and maybe restrict melee use to shortarms.
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Mantis
post Oct 21 2010, 01:16 PM
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This post has a cumbersome weapon rule (14th post down) that might do what you are looking for. I like the idea for my own games as firing long arms or even non-bulpup assault rifles in melee combat seems ... wrong somehow. Butt stroking someone with one is just fine, especially if it gets them to back up so you can shoot them, but just firing in melee? Not so much.
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Daddy's Litt...
post Oct 21 2010, 03:02 PM
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QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Oct 20 2010, 10:53 PM) *
Or they are ghouls already killing other ghouls.

It's a tough of a ghoul-eat-ghoul-world.

or the last group of runners, turned into ghouls by the first group of ghouls they fought.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Oct 21 2010, 04:05 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Oct 21 2010, 03:24 AM) *
That's the Savage Worlds way. Additionally, there, only pistols can be used in melee, longarms can't.

In SR RAW, you are free to use your Panther assault cannon when swarmed by a pack of rabid dogs. You don't even invoke the option of an interception attacks, as those are only for movement.
Unless you houserule it your way and maybe restrict melee use to shortarms.



I am not a fan of can'ts. I suspect I could use a rifle in melee it might be harder but I am fairly sure I could.

For SR though personally I don't think you should get the point blank advantage to compensate for the in melee advantage. Point blank should be for when you are close enough to be in melee but you aren't the target of the melee attack. Then it would be a -3 die penalty which is a big deal for normal shooters but not a big deal for street sams etc, which is fine to me.
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KarmaInferno
post Oct 21 2010, 04:26 PM
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I would point out that in the real world, soldiers get far more training on how to use their rifles in melee than their pistols.

Pistols aren't much better than brass knuckles in melee. Rifles, having far more mass, are preferable.

That said, soldiers tend to get more training in hand-to-hand and knife combat than in firearm-as-melee combat.



-k
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