Magic: Shapechange Spell, A few clarifications Options

[Wulffyre]

And again, there have been a few questions about RAW on our gaming table.

The Spell Shapechange, works only on Creatures that are in a Body Rating + - 2 of you. And you get to assign points = hits on the Attributes.

Now I have a few questions

Lets say a Troll wants to change into a Human (according to errata possible) since the Troll has Body 8 and the Human on average 3, not really possible.
IF you take natural maximums though, it would -> Body 6 Human. Is this possible? (We have currently Housruled it, that if the Troll has 3 Successes, he can push Body close enough to his own and work the spell)

Also I was wondering how exactly the net hits are divided. Do you add them to every physical attribute? (So much abuse potential there)

cheers
Wulffyre

[Neraph]

First off, it's FAQ possible, which is different.

Secondly, it's the average attributes, not maximum attributes of the critter, so you can't have a Body 8 troll go to a human because human's Body is 6 at natural maximum. You can, however, learn Decrease (Body), hit yourself with it, and get more options that way. Same thing with Increase (Body).

Lastly, net successes (actually, I think all successes - there's no threshold) are added to all physical attributes.

Yes, it's a powerful spell. And yes, there are downsides.

EDIT: Here's a thread about the same subject from a little earlier.

[Karoline]

Lastly, net successes (actually, I think all successes - there's no threshold) are added to all physical attributes.

Wow, really? I may have to make a human mage with elf poser and have her shapeshange into an elf and get +5 or so to all physical stats.

[Neurosis]

Gotta say at my table you can't shapechange into a metahuman. Too weird, seems to go too strongly against the spirit of the spell, and too much encroachment on physical mask.

Anyway I had another question about this spell.

If you are on drugs (say, K-10)when you cast the spell, does your critter form benefit from those drugs?

[Yerameyahu]

It's a mess of a spell, and the '+X to All' is the most egregious part. For a spell whose primary purpose is to change shape, why is it also an everything-super-buff? Bleh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I dunno if it was the thread linked, but I still say it should do this (quick and dirty 'fix'): net hits is how far from your own Body you can jump, and no change to stats.

[Redcrow]

**Begin Disclaimer: The following may or may not conform to RAW/RAI and is solely IMO :End Disclaimer**

As a GM I would have no problem with a Troll using the Shapechange spell to transform into a Human, though they might end up looking like a rather large Human. I don't feel this would seriously break the game in any way and given the high DV for the spell I think it should have a greater range than merely +/- 2 of casters Body, but I also feel that +1 per hit added to base attribute ratings of the form taken is completely ridonkulous.

Wouldn't it make more sense if every hit generated on the Sorcery roll allowed the caster to achieve a form +/- 1 Body point away from their own? Then a more skilled caster would be able to assume Shapes much larger or smaller than a less skilled caster.

[Yerameyahu]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's what I just (re-)suggested, Redcrow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Makki]

Wouldn't it make more sense if every hit generated on the Sorcery roll allowed the caster to achieve a form +/- 1 Body point away from their own? Then a more skilled caster would be able to assume Shapes much larger or smaller than a less skilled caster.

yes

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu
Because neeing an animal has some downsides. Like no ware, no armor etc.

I guess they thought: If the infiltrator is turned into a cat to infiltrate a base, he has a hard time to survive.

And what shell we do with the hits anyway.

[Yerameyahu]

I guess. I mostly see people talking about turning into Rhinos and things. I suppose we could do both (divide hits between Body-difference and stats), or use the OP's misapprehension (divide hits among stats, not +X-all).

[Karoline]

I guess. I mostly see people talking about turning into Rhinos and things. I suppose we could do both (divide hits between Body-difference and stats), or use the OP's misapprehension (divide hits among stats, not +X-all).

Yeah, something like 'each hit lets you raise a single stat by 1' That way you could 'buff' agility for sneaking, or body for soaking bullets or strength for beating on someone.

[sabs]

So I'm a troll and I shapechange into a human.

What are a human's base physical stats? 3's in everything?
What if I'm a human and shapechange into a Troll, do I get an 8 str and 8 body? a 5 and 5?

[Neraph]

Wow, really? I may have to make a human mage with elf poser and have her shapeshange into an elf and get +5 or so to all physical stats.

What if I'm a human and shapechange into a Troll, do I get an 8 str and 8 body? a 5 and 5?

You people really should look at the FAQ some time.

It specifically only states that it works for humans - not any other metatype or metavariant. Only mundane critters (technically only from the Core rulebook, but I think most people would allow those from Running Wild also) and humans.

And yes, Shapechange is a powerful spell for what it does, and I don't think it needs to be changed from where it is (except allowing the forms from Running Wild).

Here's my proposed "fix," and the House Rule I use at my table: you cannot use Shapechange or (Critter) Form to turn into a human, but there is an alternate spell with the same drain called (Metahuman) Form that can be taken for any metatype. It gives you the average stats for a race (+2 to most, if any attribute is below 6 then the + is subtracted by the difference - IE: an attribute of 1/6 would start at 3, 1/5 would be 2, 1/4 and under would be 1, whereas a 5/10 would be 7, 2/7 would be 4...). Net successes are only there to help the spell not be Counterspelled away too easily, and you cannot use the spell to emulate a specfic person - that's what (Physical) Mask is for. You simply look like what a metavariant yourself would.

[Karoline]

You people really should look at the FAQ some time.

It specifically only states that it works for humans - not any other metatype or metavariant. Only mundane critters (technically only from the Core rulebook, but I think most people would allow those from Running Wild also) and humans.


And yes, Shapechange is a powerful spell for what it does, and I don't think it needs to be changed from where it is (except allowing the forms from Running Wild).

I'm sure you're well aware how highly most people place the FAQ, but that aside I don't see where it says that in the FAQ. Ah, there, found it. It does not actually say that you cannot shapechange into a troll or anything like that, it says that you cannot take Troll Form as a type of (Critter) form spell. Now, it stands to reason to extend that you cannot shapechange into a troll for the same reason (A troll being 'paranormal') but it is interesting to note that if the FAQ is right about a troll being paranormal, then nothing from Running Wild would be viable as something you could transform into, because they are all paranormal (Excluding dogs and such), because they all came about by virtue of the awakening (Which seems to be the definition of paranormal).

Here's my proposed "fix," and the House Rule I use at my table: you cannot use Shapechange or (Critter) Form to turn into a human, but there is an alternate spell with the same drain called (Metahuman) Form that can be taken for any metatype. It gives you the average stats for a race (+2 to most, if any attribute is below 6 then the + is subtracted by the difference - IE: an attribute of 1/6 would start at 3, 1/5 would be 2, 1/4 and under would be 1, whereas a 5/10 would be 7, 2/7 would be 4...). Net successes are only there to help the spell not be Counterspelled away too easily, and you cannot use the spell to emulate a specfic person - that's what (Physical) Mask is for. You simply look like what a metavariant yourself would.

So the metahuman form wouldn't have the stat boosting, but the shapechange spell still would? Well, then I'll just use my above idea but go from a human that turns into an elf to a elf that turns into a human. Then I get those bonus charisma points.

[Makki]

, then nothing from Running Wild would be viable as something you could transform into, because they are all paranormal (Excluding dogs and such),

there are 50+ mundane (=not paranormal) animals in Running Wild, have you read it ?!

[Neraph]

I'm sure you're well aware how highly most people place the FAQ, but that aside I don't see where it says that in the FAQ. Ah, there, found it. It does not actually say that you cannot shapechange into a troll or anything like that, it says that you cannot take Troll Form as a type of (Critter) form spell. Now, it stands to reason to extend that you cannot shapechange into a troll for the same reason (A troll being 'paranormal') but it is interesting to note that if the FAQ is right about a troll being paranormal, then nothing from Running Wild would be viable as something you could transform into, because they are all paranormal (Excluding dogs and such), because they all came about by virtue of the awakening (Which seems to be the definition of paranormal).

No no... Running Wild has a mundane animal section that has stats for eagles, rhinos, hippos, elephants, revised stats for dogs, crows, ferrets, ants, spiders... ect ect ect.. Page 86, not page 100.

So the metahuman form wouldn't have the stat boosting, but the shapechange spell still would? Well, then I'll just use my above idea but go from a human that turns into an elf to a elf that turns into a human. Then I get those bonus charisma points.

No because humans would also be moved into the (Metahuman) Form spell also, meaning that you can't get attribute gains off of that spell either. Otherwise it follows the attribute replacement system of Shapechange, ie: only physical attributes and the attributes you use are average for the new form. Sorry I wasn't more clear on that.

Each metahuman form requires a different (Metahuman) Form to use, such as (Oni) Form, (Troll) Form, or (Gnome) Form.

You'd also gain the mundane "Powers" of the race: for example, you (Metahuman) Form into a troll and gain his thermographic vision, +1 Reach, and +1 armor, but you wouldn't gain a gnome or fomori's Arcane Arrester.

[Karoline]

there are 50+ mundane (=not paranormal) animals in Running Wild, have you read it ?!

No no... Running Wild has a mundane animal section that has stats for eagles, rhinos, hippos, elephants, revised stats for dogs, crows, ferrets, ants, spiders... ect ect ect.. Page 86, not page 100.

Yes, I realize that. As I said, excluding dogs and such. What I didn't understand was why Neraph said that shapechange didn't work with the critters from Running Wild. If he is talking about the mundane critters, then they do work with the shapechange spell. If he is talking about the paranormal critters, then that doesn't work because troll form doesn't work.

No because humans would also be moved into the (Metahuman) Form spell also, meaning that you can't get attribute gains off of that spell either. Otherwise it follows the attribute replacement system of Shapechange, ie: only physical attributes and the attributes you use are average for the new form. Sorry I wasn't more clear on that.

Each metahuman form requires a different (Metahuman) Form to use, such as (Oni) Form, (Troll) Form, or (Gnome) Form.

You'd also gain the mundane "Powers" of the race: for example, you (Metahuman) Form into a troll and gain his thermographic vision, +1 Reach, and +1 armor, but you wouldn't gain a gnome or fomori's Arcane Arrester.

Yes, but humans are also non-paranormal animals, and thus included in the shapechange spell, unless you're making arbitrary exceptions to the shapechange spell. And even with that exclusion, well, I guess I'll go with a gorilla, monkey, chimpanzee, or something similar with opposable thumbs. That would actually be a quite interesting character concept I think.

[Neraph]

Consult the Critters section, p. 285, for the subject's Physical attributes while in critter form.

By RAW it specifically mentions only critters in the core rulebook. A minor point, but still a valid RAW ruling. Of course, I don't know if they changed it for 4A...

EDIT: As for excluding humans from Shapechange/(Critter) Form, I get behind the idea because humans are simply different from all other animals. The DS community can get behind it because of some link between ED/SR and something about Naming or Named or something from ED.

[Karoline]

By RAW it specifically mentions only critters in the core rulebook. A minor point, but still a valid RAW ruling. Of course, I don't know if they changed it for 4A...

Note that it says 'consult... for physical attributes'. It does not say 'this is a full list of what you can turn into'. There are after all, only 4 critters in that section that would actually be options, and the section on the spell even specifically mentions Eagle Form being an option, but, by the way you are reading it, it isn't because there are no stats for eagles in the Critters section.

EDIT: As for excluding humans from Shapechange/(Critter) Form, I get behind the idea because humans are simply different from all other animals.

Actually, they aren't different from all other animals in any way whatsoever. We have no significant biological differences from any other animal. Intelligence isn't a factor when defining what is and isn't an animal. Dolphins for example are intelligent, perhaps more so than us, just in different ways, yet we still classify them as animals. The only thing that makes Humans different from all other animals in any way is that we are Humans, and so automatically assume that we are superior/different from all other animals.

The DS community can get behind it because of some link between ED/SR and something about Naming or Named or something from ED.

Yeah, I don't follow any of that ED crap stuff, so have no idea about the Naming.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As for excluding humans from Shapechange/(Critter) Form, I get behind the idea because humans are simply different from all other animals. The DS community can get behind it because of some link between ED/SR and something about Naming or Named or something from ED.

Which means absolutely Squat in our games... Shadowrun IS NOT Earthdawn... Crossover potential notwithstanding...

Anyways...

[Neraph]

Actually, they aren't different from all other animals in any way whatsoever. We have no significant biological differences from any other animal. Intelligence isn't a factor when defining what is and isn't an animal. Dolphins for example are intelligent, perhaps more so than us, just in different ways, yet we still classify them as animals. The only thing that makes Humans different from all other animals in any way is that we are Humans, and so automatically assume that we are superior/different from all other animals.

It really depends on your definitions. Regardless, there's obviously something that humans have that no other creature in the animal kingdom does - we're the only ones who use such extensive tools, learn and care about our environment (apart from a simple biological want of keeping a home), exploit its resources, and have many of the other "higher" functions of the brain (religion, philosophy, science...). There's something humans have that the rest of the animals do not, and it's not a strictly biological difference.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It really depends on your definitions. Regardless, there's obviously something that humans have that no other creature in the animal kingdom does - we're the only ones who use such extensive tools, learn and care about our environment (apart from a simple biological want of keeping a home), exploit its resources, and have many of the other "higher" functions of the brain (religion, philosophy, science...). There's something humans have that the rest of the animals do not, and it's not a strictly biological difference.

That does not change the fact that we are STILL Animals...

[TheScrivener]

I think the issue here is that you can't transform into something you already are with the spell, and all metahumans are still the same species, regardless of metatype/subspecies. A dragon, say, could use the spell to turn into a metahuman, or a sasquatch, but not a troll or an oni, they're already homo sapiens.

[Neraph]

That does not change the fact that we are STILL Animals...

Again, it really depends on what definition you're using, and your definition is shaped by your world-view. I'm trying not to get too far into a theological debate here - I'm just proposing an alternate ruling (and I already mentioned it's a House Rule) that helps retain game balance.

You can easily hand-wave my spells by simply stating that, for whatever reason, MAGIC is the defining force that differentiates (meta)humans from the rest of the animal kingdom.

Why are you arguing in favor of being able to super-power a spell anyways? Under your argument, Human Form is a valid spell, meaning with a measly 6 successes you can get augmented max for all attributes. Under my definition this would not be possible.

[TheScrivener]

I think "magic is arbitrary" will have to work as a defense for the rule here. I still think the attribute boost is kind of ridiculous, but I'll have to playtest it to make sure.