Cataclysm, WOW expansion Options

[Doc Chase]

Pretty much my reaction on coming back to WoW after skipping most of Wrath of the Lich King was, "Dude, did everyone just forget how to raid?"

To which the answer was, "Yes. Yes they did."

Apparently Wrath introduced such massive healer mana pools that many raid encounters were more or less, "Randomly push buttons and epics pop out." People weren't bothering to even move out of the fire because the raid could just heal through the damage.

Last month I witnessed a guy die from standing in a void zone and then proceed to bitch at the healer for letting him die.

In Wrath, the incoming damage and debuffs have increased significantly, but the healing ability of those classes capable of it hasn't increased at the same pace.

As I said, I left shortly after Wrath was released. So the last raid content I saw was Black Temple with it's infamous "Superbowl of Not Standing in Stuff", i.e. The Illidari Council. I was used to doing things like Reading Up On The Encounters, Paying Attention To What The Target Is Casting, and Moving When Stuff Under My Feet Is Glowing. Threat meters and other stat-trackers were among the first add-ons I installed when re-installing the game. So far when in groups of people that adopt the same raiding attitude, things go fairly smoothly.

On the other hand, the massive increase in bad raiders that Wrath created makes me hate random pick-up groups even more. I pretty much only raid with folks I know.



-k

Yeah, that's all pretty accurate. Because most of the random passers-by you'll dungeon or raid with are so bad, Blizzard is instituting an augmented rewards system for healers and tanks to convince them to queue for the unwashed masses. Suffice it to say, my warrior's going to be one hell of a rich man when I get him capped for heroics. I don't get to raid lead anymore, as I destroyed a guild I wasn't even in by leading one.

Actually, in retrospect it was pretty damn cool.

[KarmaInferno]

Yeah, the current problem is that most of the GOOD tanks and healers get snapped up by regular raid groups, and thus have little need to PUG most times. There aren't many tanks and healers in general, everyone wants to be damage-dealers and watch their DPS meters soar.

So you have left either A) Guys starting out that don't entirely know what they're doing yet or B) Bad tanks/healers or C) the vast masses of DPS.

Unfortunately the new reward system, I suspect, will not significantly draw the 'good' tanks and healers back out to PUGs. More often I think what will happen is that many DPSers will queue as tank or heals. Yes, this should probably reduce waiting times for getting into random groups, but it means MORE bad groups.



-k

[Doc Chase]

It'll pull out maybe 10% of the decent tanks/healers, but since they demand you solo queue now even that number's going to drop. Wrath produced a lot of bad, but that was because Blizz wanted people to experience more content. Cata saw a shift in the opposite direction, and I'm still not sure it's for the better. I preferred being able to get more than one heroic done a day and I could skillfully tank or heal an instance without having to worry about my health/mana pools being at a certain level to even be able to compete.

Forcing a lot of folks to bulk up on pvp gear to meet the gear quotas for heroics was, as always, a bad idea.

[Bigity]

From what I've seen/heard, I'm kinda glad I dropped out of WoW right before Cata. The questing/leveling stuff in the beta (and the revamped old world) seemed pretty great, but the end game seemed..bleah.

There is always Dark Millennium though

[StealthSigma]

Unfortunately the new reward system, I suspect, will not significantly draw the 'good' tanks and healers back out to PUGs. More often I think what will happen is that many DPSers will queue as tank or heals. Yes, this should probably reduce waiting times for getting into random groups, but it means MORE bad groups.

It'll reduce queue times not waiting times. I think we should differentiate between the two.

Queue times is the amount of time you sit in the LFD queue. Waiting time is the amount of time you spend waiting for dungeons overall.

So crappy tanks and healers queue up (in order to get uber rewards). They fail miserably. The group spends a ridiculous amount of time completely the dungeon (and the tank or healer gets the reward) or the tank/healer quits/gets kicked loses the reward and has to go right back into the queue.

The solo queue portion is what kills this and makes the thought that geared and skilled tanks would start queuing laughable. Cataclysm gear levels haven't progressed to the point where tanks can carry DPS through heroics. That's why chain tanking heroics in Wrath was a viable situation. The only geared/skilled tanks/healers that will do this are those who have a strange obsession with collecting mounts and pets.

This change WILL create more groups. The problem is that the average group quality will significantly drop and I suspect that dungeon completion rates also decline.

[Doc Chase]

It'll reduce queue times not waiting times. I think we should differentiate between the two.

Queue times is the amount of time you sit in the LFD queue. Waiting time is the amount of time you spend waiting for dungeons overall.

So crappy tanks and healers queue up (in order to get uber rewards). They fail miserably. The group spends a ridiculous amount of time completely the dungeon (and the tank or healer gets the reward) or the tank/healer quits/gets kicked loses the reward and has to go right back into the queue.

The solo queue portion is what kills this and makes the thought that geared and skilled tanks would start queuing laughable. Cataclysm gear levels haven't progressed to the point where tanks can carry DPS through heroics. That's why chain tanking heroics in Wrath was a viable situation. The only geared/skilled tanks/healers that will do this are those who have a strange obsession with collecting mounts and pets.

This change WILL create more groups. The problem is that the average group quality will significantly drop and I suspect that dungeon completion rates also decline.

They're hoping it's a stopgap solution for another two content patches until the average ilevel rises to the point you're overgearing content again.

[KarmaInferno]

That's why chain tanking heroics in Wrath was a viable situation.

I just wanted to call this out. I see tanks doing this even now. I don't know how many times in the past couple months I've seen tanks pulling when the healer is out of mana and still sitting and drinking. Usually it doesn't end well.

I suppose I just wanted to grump some more about Wrath creating bads.





-k

[StealthSigma]

I just wanted to call this out. I see tanks doing this even now. I don't know how many times in the past couple months I've seen tanks pulling when the healer is out of mana and still sitting and drinking. Usually it doesn't end well.

I suppose I just wanted to grump some more about Wrath creating bads.

I wasn't talking about chain pulling. I meant chaining heroic after heroic after heroic. However, chain pulling is a serious problem that causes more delays in Cata. (Note I stopped playing Cata awhile ago)

[Doc Chase]

I wasn't talking about chain pulling. I meant chaining heroic after heroic after heroic. However, chain pulling is a serious problem that causes more delays in Cata. (Note I stopped playing Cata awhile ago)

PuG's are slowly learning this. I'm happy to let them know up front if there's going to be a problem if they think they're going to chain pull while standing in the bad.

If they don't listen, I don't need heroics on my pally that bad.

[StealthSigma]

PuG's are slowly learning this. I'm happy to let them know up front if there's going to be a problem if they think they're going to chain pull while standing in the bad.

If they don't listen, I don't need heroics on my pally that bad.

I burned out bad during Lich King. Spent every week raiding 10 man towards killing Heroic Lich King. Ended up exasperated over the fact that post patch guild killed him with a druid solo tanking the encounter. That really destroyed my interest in the game. I still don't know if the problem was a healing issue or dps issue. I'm inclined to think it was a healing issue since they went 1 tank, 6 dps, 3 healer instead of 2 tank, 6 dps, 2 healer.

[Doc Chase]

I burned out bad during Lich King. Spent every week raiding 10 man towards killing Heroic Lich King. Ended up exasperated over the fact that post patch guild killed him with a druid solo tanking the encounter. That really destroyed my interest in the game. I still don't know if the problem was a healing issue or dps issue. I'm inclined to think it was a healing issue since they went 1 tank, 6 dps, 3 healer instead of 2 tank, 6 dps, 2 healer.

Sounds like a combination of both. DPS wasn't able to tear him down as fast as they needed, so you had to expand the healing pool to compensate.

WoW Insider has a good starter article on the problems with pugging in Cataclysm - in essence, the columnist calls it a WOTLK mentality with a BC difficulty level. Introducing the finder when they did (when most folks were far overgeared for heroic content) changed the runs from effective tanking to fast tanking, and folks are still in that mindset. I still far prefer healing to tanking as I can directly control who stays alive - and that'll be the guy who's supposed to be generating threat.

[Hocus Pocus]

my main is a pally holy/tank spec. I like playing the healing role, its my favorite. I've taken up the slack when need be tanking wise as well in guild. Its nice that people think i'm competent in both roles, but raiding is too long and even 5-man's take a bit of time now, too many tells when i just want to veg out a few minutes after i put the kids to bed. I'm and old man can can't stay up like i used to to eek out that 5 man before bedtime. True passion for the game for me is leveling professions and once i hit my shammy to 75 and maxed out the last two professions that i haven't I think i will achieve all that I wanted to with this game.

my time expired and i still haven't renewed yet. I have re-watched naruto fights and movies i missed on youtube and have been yucking it up watching this.

[StealthSigma]

Sounds like a combination of both. DPS wasn't able to tear him down as fast as they needed, so you had to expand the healing pool to compensate.

We had the DPS. I will admit that it's possible it was a tanking issue. A lot of our problem was getting out of P1 for Lich King was a crapshoot. The enraged shambling horrors screwed us over a lot. There were times where I'd be tanking horrors and Holy Wrath and HoJ were on CD and the priest couldn't do whatever it is priests do to ensure I didn't die.

Really, what exasperates me the most is that the druid could tank both shambling horrors through enrages and Lich King all at the same time by tossing on a third healer. Really. They were only able to do it because Druids were OP at tanking after that patch and it was before the druid tanking nerf hit.

[Hocus Pocus]

I've gone back and forth many a time about leaving wow, but it looks like this might be it. My guild is gone gone. A coupla women and one guy are the only ones that play with regularity anymore, I myself play maybe a few times a week if that and if it wasn't for the 3 peeps on asking me to stay a bit longer i wouldn't have purchased another game card. People didn't leave the guild, but seemingly left the game entirely as our numbers havn't changed for months. I play wow mostly for the social aspect and leveling professions, I've had some offers to joining other guilds, but i miss the peeps i've run with since '07 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) I found some old screenshots on my old comp the other day, lol! good times...good times...