Echolocation and Recordings Options

[Nerdynick]

Pretty self explanatory. Would a character with the Echolocation bioware (pg 63 Augmentation) be able to discern the surroundings in a high-quality audio record?

Perhaps it would work better if they knew the location the recording was taken from? For example, a trideo security camera was blinded (or hacked and the video record deleted, but not the audio), could a person with echolocation 'put themselves' where the camera was and get an image from the audio?

[Yerameyahu]

The short answer is 'no'.

(The long answer is 'possibly'.) Echolocation uses sonic pulses, like sonar. If the recording was made with the appropriate tapping, clicking, etc., then the person probably *can* use echolocation with it. The GM might rule that it's even fuzzier than normal, do to quality and/or unfamiliarity (compared to their own ears/normal audio system).

[sabs]

I would say no. Because they're not there to properly receive the right vibrations.

And the sound is coming from the 'speakers' and not from the real location as they were recorded by the trideo camera.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, if it's capturing true stereo (or better), it should be at least *nearly* as good as metahuman binaural hearing. There is some evidence, though, that your brain judges sound direction by resonances of your pinnae and skull. So there's some support there for sabs' take. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

I'm not saying the recording isn't good. But replaying it is a bitch.

If you do a direct DNI replay, that doesn't help because it by passes your echolocation implant.

So you have to somehow play the sound back from the direction it arrived at the camera.

That's /hard/

P.S.
And playing it back using a headset also doesn't work right.

[Nerdynick]

I don't think the bioware system actually requires a special noise, similar to how the cyberware ultrasound sensor can be run "silent". In the above example, perhaps the noise used for reference is an intruder's footsteps? (grasping at insubstantial material, I know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

So, say the camera had binaural hearing? We have 3D sound even in modern video games (which IS different, but my point is that it shouldn't be hard to make a binaural camera recording)

[sabs]

No the description of echolocation says you need a cane, or a clicking of your tongue against the roof of your mouth, or at the very least the tapping of your heel on the ground.

So it does require a special noise.

The problem is that a camera is a single point.
collecting the data from where it is. Now how do you turn around and play that back so that the person hears the sounds like he was standing where the camera was standing?

[Nerdynick]

And I referenced the sounds from the footage as a sound source, essentially using a specific background noise to echolocate. The kid in this documentary first learned to echolocate by listening to the sounds of buildings while passing in a car. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLziFMF4DHA )

Why is the camera being a single point a problem? Your head is a single point. And I think the opinion is that binaural cameras aren't hard to make.

As for simulating the person being in the camera's position, well, thats kind of the point of a recording. Otherwise, some creative roleplaying on the person's part might allow for it (heh, roleplaying in a roleplaying game. Surreal)

[Doc Chase]

And I referenced the sounds from the footage as a sound source, essentially using a specific background noise to echolocate. The kid in this documentary first learned to echolocate by listening to the sounds of buildings while passing in a car. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLziFMF4DHA )

Why is the camera being a single point a problem? Your head is a single point. And I think the opinion is that binaural cameras aren't hard to make.

As for simulating the person being in the camera's position, well, thats kind of the point of a recording. Otherwise, some creative roleplaying on the person's part might allow for it (heh, roleplaying in a roleplaying game. Surreal)

Look, it's pretty clear you want this piece of cheese, so take it. I'm pretty sure there isn't a security camera on the planet that's going to have a sonar-quality receiver and recorder for someone to echolocate off of, but to each their own.

And as an aside, can the snide comments at the end. They aren't necessary.

[Nerdynick]

Well, its not that I especially want "this piece of cheese". I have no particular planned use for it (except maybe to pop a nasty surprise on my players, even though there are easier ways to do that, I'm sure) its just an idea that I came up with that I wanted to know if it was viable. I'm not yet convinced it isn't *viable*, though it is *situational*.

Edit: Apologies about the snide comments. It wasn't intended to come off that way.

*sigh* perhaps my argumentative nature is getting the best of me.

[Doc Chase]

Well, its not that I especially want "this piece of cheese". I have no particular planned use for it (except maybe to pop a nasty surprise on my players, even though there are easier ways to do that, I'm sure) its just an idea that I came up with that I wanted to know if it was viable. I'm not yet convinced it isn't *viable*, though it is *situational*.

If you want to craft a run or a series of them around the testing of this, I'd say go for it - but while I'm sure the technology for 2072-era recorders is capable of that kind of power I don't think they're manufactured with that in mind, if that makes sense.

You're talking about a custom-made echolocation recorders when one could just use the ultrasound mods or radar. If a player asked me for it, I'd tell him that he can't get it off the shelf and say it's a piece of cheese. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

The problem I'm having with it is that it's an 'organic' receptor trying to map a location with a technological sensor. If the recorder had that kind of fine control, I'd say it was already doing the mapping.

If it was a corp developing it, I'd have to ask why when there's more economical and reliable means of doing the job, unless you're wanting to echo-map the Deep Lacuna.

Truth be told, I'm probably the last person who should be scolding someone else for snide comments. Don't sweat it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Nerdynick]

Okay, so cameras aren't going to be of high enough quality to allow for this unless custom made for this purpose? I can go with that.

As far as uses go, I would say the biggest usage would come when a corp has had a security compromise that has knocked out video footage and they didn't have the money to purchase ultrasound sensors for the building (not a very big corp or one that underspends on security). They might use someone with echolocation to reconstruct the scene.

[Nerdynick]

Gah! Double post!

[Doc Chase]

Okay, so cameras aren't going to be of high enough quality to allow for this unless custom made for this purpose? I can go with that.

As far as uses go, I would say the biggest usage would come when a corp has had a security compromise that has knocked out video footage and they didn't have the money to purchase ultrasound sensors for the building (not a very big corp or one that underspends on security). They might use someone with echolocation to reconstruct the scene.

It's twofold. One's the camera itself, the other's the recording filters. They'd have to play with it for awhile to get things working to the level I think you're asking about.

We already see on the stage and screen that enterprising investigators clean up recordings to find little tidbits of clues. Can we use it to completely make a new room? I'm not sure. I don't know how well a passive locator is going to work with this. If the device itself was designed to send a pulse and measure the echos? Absolutely. Your example did teach himself to echolocate with active pinging, and then could use passive location when in the car.

The thing is - if they're picking up what's left of this camera after the fact, they already know what the room looks like. Any shell casings (if they're not using caseless), blood spatter and bullet holes is going to tell the story more than an echolocation would. I'm also not too sure how they'd get the work done as it'd cost a pretty penny and an ultrasound sensor in the ceiling would be cheaper. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Bradd]

No the description of echolocation says you need a cane, or a clicking of your tongue against the roof of your mouth, or at the very least the tapping of your heel on the ground.

So it does require a special noise.

That's not the impression I get from the rules on Augmentation pps. 63-64:

Ultrasound is not necessary for the use of this
implant—simple clicking noises with the tongue or the sound of
hard heels on the floor will suffice. Ultrasound, however, increases
the range and quality of perception.

That sounds to me like any reasonably distinct sound is sufficient for echolocation.

[Doc Chase]

That sounds to me like any reasonably distinct sound is sufficient for echolocation.

An active ping pretty well requires you to make the sound in question, though.

[Nerdynick]

But if there wasn't a firefight, say they planted a bomb (that was not readily detectable) and they need to find out where it was before it blew up, then those pieces of evidence won't be there. And they don't have to have an echolocater on permanent retainer, just hire him on a specific job.

This seems to bring the consensus to: This *might* be able to be done if the recording was cleaned up and the quality was good enough and there was a background noise available for imaging. However, this is a situational usage, and relies on too many variables to be dependable.

So the remaining question would be: are 2070 surveillance cameras able to record in a high enough quality for this to be feasible? I doubt there is serious data pointing one way or the other on that question, so it appears to be up to the GM at that point (although any such data that did point towards one argument would be welcome).

[KarmaInferno]

I would say no. Because they're not there to properly receive the right vibrations.

And the sound is coming from the 'speakers' and not from the real location as they were recorded by the trideo camera.

Er, isn't the whole point of "surround sound" to recreate the directionality of the noise?

It's certainly possible to set up recording to catch 3D sound. What matters is the the playback system needs to ALSO be set up to reproduce the sounds in the same directions. E.G. you need multiple speakers arranged around you.

That said, echolocation needs more than just any sound. It needs a sound you already have a copy of before taking the reading, so you can compare the original sound with the reflected echo.


-k

[sabs]

Surround sound isn't that good though. It's not real surround sound. It's using fading and the 4 speakers to create the illusion of really being there.

Also surround sound is planned, and created by multiple recording systems/sessions gathering the information from different points.

If you put someone with echolocation in a room, with say an 8 speaker system. They might pick up some very basic information, if the recording was /really/ good. BUt they'd be suffering from the problem that to them.. the sound would be coming from those 8 speakers.. and not from a point 3 feet to the left, and 2 forward, like it /actually/ happened.

Sure, you can tell if someone is going from left to rigfht. But how far away from you were they? It would be tough to get that off any recording, unless you could actually generate the sounds from their proper locations. And if you can do that, why do you need the echolocation.

[Nerdynick]

Well, with a binaural recorder you could record with roughly the same capacity for echolocative quality as a human, I would think (depending on quality). Then playing back the sound via AR/earbuds would roughly simulate being at the scene.

For your last point though, if the echolocater had access to the scene (which they would in the proposed situation), they would be able to test the acoustic qualities of the scene, which would help tremendously in building the scene.

[sabs]

I don't think earbuds would work properly.
They have WAY worse fidelity

[ProfGast]

Well, with a binaural recorder you could record with roughly the same capacity for echolocative quality as a human, I would think (depending on quality). Then playing back the sound via AR/earbuds would roughly simulate being at the scene.

I don't think binaural recording would be sufficient actually. Nowhere in the echolocation bioware description does it say that the ears are necessarily the only receptors. It simply says "bioware enhances the nerve strands required for echolocation. Binaural recordings would be able to simulate intensities of sounds based on directions, but is wholly unable to simulated directions of bouncing sound, especially in something as limited as a pair of earbuds. Even assuming completely faithful recording equipment that can store the sound files without any losses, clipping or the like, a playback that only gives relative intensities emanating from two points would not be able to faithfully reproduce Sound in a three dimensional environment. It might simulate it nearly enough for someone who has less sensitive hearing, but by limiting the sense input to what we, as normal humans, have, you'd limit the perception to something that we, as normal humans, are capable of.

At best a listener would have a very flat, static filled view. At worst you'd just go "I think he went behind the recorder" just like Joe Schmoe off the road who has particularly good hearing.

I think it WOULD be possible to record and playback a scene. But it would require pretty hefty equipment as well as some sort of sonic-chamber that has the ability to playback, damp and simulate noises in a full 360 degree way. AR/Simsense is a maybe, but definitely not something as simple as binaural recordings and earbuds.

[Yerameyahu]

The human ear isn't really very sensitive, so we can assume that earbuds in 2070, and especially trodes, can transmit any sounds with suitable fidelity. Similarly, microphones in 2070 should be plenty sensitive. The problem (with the earbuds) is that that's only two sources, so there's a limitation right there.

So, we know a couple facts about Echolocation. 1, it requires a suitably loud, regular 'ping' source, whether a click of the tongue, a cane tapping, an actual ultrasound ping (with extra gear), or even a similar sound from the environment (unlikely, but not impossible). 2, it works in the audible sound range with normal metahuman ears; the implant only affects the brain (well, nervous system). 3, the clarity and range is limited by background noise and the contrast of the ping.

So, this shouldn't be utterly impossible, and wouldn't require terribly major equipment for capture or playback. At minimum, 2 microphones would be required, but you could require more. The active ping source is still required: something loud, short, and regular (rhythmic). Like I said, you could limit (penalize) the range and clarity of this method (for a number of good reasons). There's no good reason for any character not to have trodes, so you could require them (over earbuds) for sufficiently 'realistic' playback; personally, I would require VR, so that *other* hearing is suppressed. It is a neat, creative trick, and not unreasonable or imbalancing (esp. because it's so niche).

[ProfGast]

My real question is, if you're already getting all of those things together, why you don't just uh... make an ultrasound-recorder camera of some sort?

[Nerdynick]

Well, I stayed away from VR playback because someone said it wouldn't work earlier (my mistake for not double checking these things), but if VR would work, then it would be preferable.

My real question is, if you're already getting all of those things together, why you don't just uh... make an ultrasound-recorder camera of some sort?

What if you didn't have the foresight to install those things though? In that case you bring in an echolocater to build the images based off the audio. Or at least, that is the proposed situation.