Cyber Lower Limbs, Attribute Effect? Options

[klinktastic]

So I know this is obvious for full cyber arms/legs, you lose you meet scores and replace them with 3/3/3 for the limb (excluding customization). However, what happens to the attributes for lower limb replacement? Does that 3/3/3 still come into effect? Or do you retain your meat scores?

[Doc Chase]

Well, Skywalker retained his Force powers through his bionic hand, so...

...Honestly, I'd go with player's ability scores on it. I'd hate to have to put together a chart for when forearm strength comes into play. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[MikeKozar]

At my table, we case-by-cased it; actions that require lots of manual dexterity in the fingers and wrist, like lockpicking, would use the limb scores. Although there are some good reasons for and against it, we also decided to allow the cyberlimb attributes with pistols.

The easiest (and most medically sound) solution is to make the player get limbs at the same stats as his meat body. This should make the limb feel closer to 'normal' for him, and keep your group from having to track different attribute pools. I doubt it will be very popular, since the whole point of cyber is to exceed human limits, but it does neatly solve the problem. Lots of cool things a cyberhand can do besides pool boosts.

[klinktastic]

Ok, that all makes a lot of sense. Since the upper arm is really where the most of everything is is anyway, except fine manipulation, it sounds good. Now that seems like a very good way to add some nifty gizmos and armor to a cyber sam. Lower arm has 10 capacity, thats good for some armor plus a radar, orientation system, and a built in spur. Lower legs give you 15, meaning you can add some armor, plus add skates, jacks, skimmers, or any other things you can think of. Damn, so like 16k each lower leg, you can get armor 3, h. jacks 4, and skates. That's pretty nice. Easy way to stack armor.

[MikeKozar]

Sounds like you've got some great ideas! One tip from my table: don't overlook the humble Nanohive. (Augmentation, pg. 112) It takes a ton of essence if you mount one in your meat, but for some reason a nanohive in a limb just takes a little capacity. Stock up on anti-tox, anti-disease, anti-nanotech and you still have room for brain boosts and immunity to suffocation/drowning.

[Mäx]

Sounds like you've got some great ideas! One tip from my table: don't overlook the humble Nanohive. (Augmentation, pg. 112) It takes a ton of essence if you mount one in your meat, but for some reason a nanohive in a limb just takes a little capacity. Stock up on anti-tox, anti-disease, anti-nanotech and you still have room for brain boosts and immunity to suffocation/drowning.

The nano hives in cyberlimbs is one think where the rules really fail.
The hive should always cost the non scaling part of the essence cost(IMO), as that cost represents changes to the character internal organs.

[Yerameyahu]

Partial limbs generally affect your stats for any tests significantly involving those partial limbs.

[Knight Saber]

The nano hives in cyberlimbs is one think where the rules really fail.
The hive should always cost the non scaling part of the essence cost(IMO), as that cost represents changes to the character internal organs.

From the description of the Nanohive modifying your internal organs, I had the impression it could only be installed with capacity in a cybertorso... that'd make more sense than having it installed in, say, a cyberhand, but RAW says just "cyberlimb."

[Yerameyahu]

The nanohive doesn't modify anything, and it really only has to fit anywhere your blood goes. The organs are modified as part of the installation process, to make your body 'nanite-friendly'. I agree that this should be a nominal, unavoidable Essence cost; I also think that the Capacity of the hive could be bumped up slightly. It is odd that it can *fit* in a hand.

In fact, the 'nanite-friendly' treatment should be a wholly separate augmentation, *required* for a nanohive, that slightly increases the duration of nanite treatments in even hive-less users. This would make the most sense, and give another little option.

[Medicineman]

So I know this is obvious for full cyber arms/legs, you lose you meet scores and replace them with 3/3/3 for the limb (excluding customization). However, what happens to the attributes for lower limb replacement? Does that 3/3/3 still come into effect? Or do you retain your meat scores?

Its the same .The Base Attributes are 3/3/3
You need customized Cyberlimbs and pay for raised Attributes to match the meatbody

Hough!
Medicineman

[klinktastic]

Its the same .The Base Attributes are 3/3/3
You need customized Cyberlimbs and pay for raised Attributes to match the meatbody

Hough!
Medicineman

Your assessment makes sense, but that would also make cyber hands and cyber lower arms completely useless then. Also, then you have to start averaging you limbs to make firearms checks. So lower cyber limb has agility 3, but meat score is 5, then your average arm is 4. That seems a little ridiculous.

[Yerameyahu]

Nope. Instead of ridiculous, it's exactly how it works.

Typically, partial limbs only affect tests that specifically use them, and remember that it works both ways: if a player is claiming his Agi 9 cyberhand counts for shooting, then it should also hurt in the same kind of situations. In some cases, you don't even average: the book example is using just the hand's Strength for a 'gripping' test.

[Medicineman]

Your assessment makes sense, but that would also make cyber hands and cyber lower arms completely useless then
Why do they become useless ? .With enough ¥ they can even raise the average Attribute without any Karma, additional Armor,Gimmicks(build in Nanohive,Comlink,Recoilcompensation)

So lower cyber limb has agility 3, but meat score is 5, then your average arm is 4. That seems a little ridiculous.
I don't see anything ridicoulus either (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hough!
Medicineman

[klinktastic]

Well honestly I just made up what I figured the ruling would be. But I cannot actually find any rules to verify that that is the case. So if you had a lower arm with agility 8, but meat of 2, you'd be at 4 average for the limb. However if you shoot a gun, you get an 8. Is that limited to just pistols and other one handed weapons? What about an assault rifle? Are you at a 3 then? Average right arm is 4 and left arm is 2, so 3. Since it's technically a two handed gun. But you're shooting with your agile hand, is it an 8 or a 3. I just don't think they made the rules very clear. Sounds like its in the realm of house rules to me.

[Yerameyahu]

Only if the GM decides that shooting a gun doesn't involve the rest of your arm/body.

[klinktastic]

Only if the GM decides that shooting a gun doesn't involve the rest of your arm/body.

That's my point. It's ill-defined. So they are either very useful or extremely worthless, depending on the GM's interpretation. That was the point of this post. To figure out of there was anything I was missing. Obviously not.

[Yerameyahu]

Or, moderately useful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Every possible situation is not clearly laid out, no, but the area of interpretation is not huge. As with basically everything, find out what the GM is going with before you make big plans.

[Shrike30]

Your assessment makes sense, but that would also make cyber hands and cyber lower arms completely useless then. Also, then you have to start averaging you limbs to make firearms checks. So lower cyber limb has agility 3, but meat score is 5, then your average arm is 4. That seems a little ridiculous.

I don't see the issue here. For a couple thousand more nuyen, you could customize the lower cyberarm (rules for customization are in Arsenal; it doesn't use up any capacity, but caps out at racial unaugmented max), increasing the agility to 5 and getting rid of the problem. If you don't want to spend the 2k, well, that penalty is what you get for attaching cheap off-the-shelf hardware to your not-off-the-shelf self.

It's possible with genetweaking and... whatever it is that costs 20BP and increases your stat max, to get a human's cyberlimb stat up to 8 without burning a single point of capacity. Good times there.

[TheScrivener]

Exceptional Attribute. Customization rules are in SR4A now, too. They also bump the Availability by 1 per point, though, so if you're adding +3 to three different stats it's twelve grand and +8 to avail, putting some limbs above 12 Avail.

[klinktastic]

Yeah, and you're talking about investing a lot of BPs just to get a pimped out cyber lower arm. At that point, just go for full arm, its cheaper. Yeah, it seems that they either dominate or suck, but really have no middle ground as it relates to GM intrepration.

[Yerameyahu]

Maybe you're getting it after chargen, for example. Maybe you want someplace for your nanohive and other gadgets, or your character concept really depends on fingertip darts or cyberweapon. Options can exist just for the sake of having options. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shrike30]

Kid Stealth legs with skates and jacks installed can make a serious difference in how a character handles, too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)