AIs and Initiative Passes Options

[Mr. Hyde]

So, I've been working on a character idea that I've seen a few threads on already: the AI riding a humanoid drone. Something occurred to me, though. Is there any way at all for such a character to get extra Initiative Passes?

- Synaptic Boosters and Wired Reflexes are obviously out, because the character isn't meat and those aren't valid options for a drone.
- Can you hot sim?
- Do you get the usual 3 IP for a drone running on its Pilot program? What if you take Piloting Origin (in which case you are a Pilot program...)?

I'm assuming I must be missing something here.

[Makki]

a rigging AI has always 3 IP. as has an agent.

[Karoline]

An AI, being a program on the matrix always has 3 IP like Makki said. Same goes for Pilots, Agents, IC, and even Sprites.

AIs have no means of increasing the number of IPs they get. On the other hand nothing (that I can think of) will decrease the number either.

[KarmaInferno]

Can AIs make use of simsense data? Unwired and Runner's Companion don't seem to address it.

If yes, they should be able to make use of a Simsense Accelerator installed in their home node.



-k

[Summerstorm]

Well... they CAN rig (with an quality). So yeah, they could (in my game).

And i would also allow them for buying a fifth IP too. They shouldn't be limited that way. (I would also let them have higher attributes - as long as their nexus can sustain them)

But that is, of course, only houseruling blatantly overriding the RAW.

[TheScrivener]

All VR is simsense, and AIs are always considered to be in VR, so simsense accelerator would work regardless of Pilot Origin. As for further increase, I'm considering letting AIs take limited versions of technomancer echoes or sprite powers as Emerged entities, but my AI player hasn't progressed enough to get there. Overclocking would settle that issue nicely, but I don't need an AI with six or seven IPs, so it's tricky.

[Udoshi]

but I don't need an AI with six or seven IPs, so it's tricky.

4 is the hardlimit, anyway, unless something specifically says you can get 5.
But yeah, an AI running on a 'link with a Simsense Accelerator may or may not be able to get a 4th pass. Something to take up with your GM.
On the other hand, a Simsense Booster in Basic Grade is a piece of cyberware available off the shelf, and since its basic grade, it has a device rating of 3. Presumably you could steal one, not bother to install it with the wetware, and just network the hardware with the commlink.

[Yerameyahu]

TheScrivener, that's not quite logical. Agents and pilots are just as much 'always considered to be in VR' (i.e., not at all; where did you get that?), and they're obviously not using simsense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Simsense is only for brains.

And you can't just 'interface' with cyberware, either.

I'd be concerned about equating metasapient AI (nothing but real code) with what's basically a free Sprite (Emergent/Resonance entity). I do agree that they should have nifty upgrade options, just like free Spirits.

[Neraph]

TheScrivener, that's not quite logical. Agents and pilots are just as much 'always considered to be in VR' (i.e., not at all; where did you get that?), and they're obviously not using simsense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Simsense is only for brains.

And you can't just 'interface' with cyberware, either.

/agree.

Now I have a Houserule at my table that allows a certain piece of hardware that has the same availability and cost of a Simsense Accelerator that is a hardware addon for drones/Agents that AIs could utilize, but it's never come up yet.

[Karoline]

Yeah, definitely have to agree that simsense accelerator wouldn't work.

[Udoshi]

And you can't just 'interface' with cyberware, either.

Why not?

No, really, why not? I want details.

As long as you have a cyberarm connected to a power source, why can't you connect to it, perform diagnostics, and tests its movement functions? It has a device rating, it has a node, it can be connected to, node scripts loaded and settings altered. Just because a simsense booster is headware and not bodyware doesn't mean it doesn't work the same.

By your logic, someone with an implanted cybercom is unhackable, because you 'just can't interface with it'.

Thats just plain wrong.

[Yerameyahu]

Oh, nice of you to introduce me to Mr. Strawman. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Connecting to a device isn't the same as using it, especially if we're talking about cyberware. An agent can't use a Control Rig; it doesn't have nerves. (Similarly, you can connect to a simsense accelerator all you want, but it doesn't *do* anything useful without simsense.) That's (obviously) what I meant by 'interface'. Ditto for the Cerebral Booster, the Simsense Booster, the Math SPU, etc. They're cyberware. They're for meat. No one is saying that non-meat versions don't exist (in the setting; they certainly don't exist in the books).

As for the cyberarms example, that's a famously undescribed area of SR4, so it won't help you much. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Maybe you can control (at the natural level) a limb without the DNI, maybe you can't.

Let's take a closer look. TheScrivener suggested, "just network the hardware [Simsense Booster] with the commlink". This is the Simsense Booster cyberware: "The implant incorporates a number of serial neural stimulators inserted into the areas of the user’s cortex that enhance the brain’s ability to process and respond to virtual reality (VR) stimuli." See? It's not like I'm being mean, here. It's a brain mod, not an implanted commlink. That's why it doesn't have a Capacity rating, why you can't just jam it into a cyberhand.

[TheScrivener]

Sorry about my incomplete description of AIs in VR: I mean, they exist in the Matrix entirely, and so they spend a lot of their time interpreting simsense data about the Matrix. On rereading, though, the description of how the Simsense Accelerator works seems to be with the interface between the user and the commlink, so obviously that's not something that carries over.

I never said ANYTHING about Simsense Boosters or any other cyberware though. That was Udoshi. The fact that there's no hot-sim bonus or anything like it for AIs is somewhat troubling, though - perhaps since they're part of the system, so to speak, they can't go any faster than it does? AIs get truly staggering Matrix statistics, why is it that any hacker using hot sim acts faster than they do?

[Yerameyahu]

Well, there are two schools of thought, I guess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) One is that the game is written for metahumans, and they just didn't bother listing all the cool stuff that an AI can actually do/use. Two, is the classic theme of 'meat is better'; a human brain really *can* beat the machines in at least some way. (Personally, NO, I don't think 'meat is special' is appropriate when discussing AIs. I subscribe to option 1: laziness and limited book space.)

I still don't think machines interpret simsense data at all. They don't need to: they can already understand the *raw* data, right? It'd be like translating machine code into English, teaching the machine to read English, and then letting it translate it back into machine code again—theoretically possible, but a massive waste of everyone's time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

If that's the case, logically they should be able to make a pure machine interface that has similar effects to the Simsense Accelerator and Booster except for programs, jacking up the signal directly instead of having to translate it through simsense.



-k

[TheScrivener]

Yeah, I do think this makes sense - though since AIs are rare and weird, it's going to be the product of deep corporate R&D. I'm really thinking about this now... maybe my AI character will want to get ahold of some widget or consume some code that gives him a boost, and recruit the rest of the team to get his home node inserted deep into a Renraku facility... my ex-Renraku covert specialist would love that...

OR! Maybe there's a particular kind of free sprite that can be consumed by an AI to give them a 'boost' until their next realignment or something. End up like a drug to them.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, KarmaInferno, that's what I'm saying. You can't use the cyberware, and the machine version isn't in the book, but that's what GMs are for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jhaiisiin]

As mentioned above, RAW is that they're stuck at 3, no matter what.

A house rule that was hinted at allows AI characters to take certain cyberware as program options, allowing the AI to become more than it's original coding. This allows for things like Cerebral boosters, Simsense Accellerators, etc. I've heard a lot of people happily apply the +2 hotsim bonus to AI's as well.

Here's the relevant post from way back in the day:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=850485

[darthmord]

As mentioned above, RAW is that they're stuck at 3, no matter what.

A house rule that was hinted at allows AI characters to take certain cyberware as program options, allowing the AI to become more than it's original coding. This allows for things like Cerebral boosters, Simsense Accellerators, etc. I've heard a lot of people happily apply the +2 hotsim bonus to AI's as well.

Here's the relevant post from way back in the day:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=850485

That you for quoting that link. I was just going suggest it here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

One issue is whether something should be a software or hardware option. While things like Optimization do exist, one of the major themes of AIs (and agents, etc.) is that they're hardware-dependent.

[Neraph]

If that's the case, logically they should be able to make a pure machine interface that has similar effects to the Simsense Accelerator and Booster except for programs, jacking up the signal directly instead of having to translate it through simsense.

Now I have a Houserule at my table that allows a certain piece of hardware that has the same availability and cost of a Simsense Accelerator that is a hardware addon for drones/Agents that AIs could utilize, but it's never come up yet.

Sometimes I think people don't read my posts unless they want to disagree with them.

[Yerameyahu]

Paranoid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) How would they know if they wanted to disagree unless they read them? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)