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> E-Brains, A GitS/ Man Machine Ref
Shockwave_IIc
post Mar 10 2004, 05:06 AM
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In Ghost In The Shell and Man Machine Interface (more man machine) There are numerous references to "E-Brains" (Electronic Brains) and the verious types and complexaties of them. And Being that Shadowrun (or man machine/ GitS depending on what why you look at it) has some simulites. I was wondering what would consitute for an "E-Brain" in shadowrun?

Datajack, The simplest form of E-Brain, allows you to control things Via DNI.

Others thing that would be "in" an E-Brain would be, Encephalon, Math SPU. Tactical Computer? and VCR's would they make up part of an E-Brain, how about Crainal Cyberdecks.

See Motoko Kusanagi has what appears to be a VERY advanced E-brain. She does some computer hacking indicating a Crainal Cyberdeck, She "rigs" Clarice M, thus indicating a VCR. Now she also "Ghost hacks" (read effects people with Psychotropic Black IC). Also there are mentions of her commenting on a fight she just had say "they were running the same combat software as me but without the ability to improvise" (or something close) indicating that she's running chipped skills (with ECD?).

She also calculates speed and trajectory of a fly dataline so she can catch it (with her foot).
QUOTE
The Doctor has launched a wire-guided ballistic projectile, Ma'am.
I estimate it will pass over our ship and land in the sea 30 meters away.
Time to cross our Midline...7 seconds. Shall we shoot it down?

Closing at only 193KPH? forget it No Prob!


Though techincally Electronic, A Cerebral Boosters would be involved no?

What im asking is, What would be needed to have an "E-Brain" In the full sense.

Anyway thoughts and opinions of people more quilified then me would be great.
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Nath
post Mar 10 2004, 12:01 PM
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First, the datajack is the obvious one (IIRC, in SR riggers wear them on the neck, closer to motor areas), with some memory. They're online all the time, so normal folk certainly have cellphone. Security services probably add radio as well. Since they don't have to speak, they obviously have tranduscer. The core of most GitS stories lies in brain-hacking. In SR there are no implant that really match to allow such thing. The closest thing I see is the Encephalon which enter in the brain processing loop, though it's supposed to be only as a support. Hacking would be closer to SR rules as a personafix-type program programmed "on-the-fly" by the hacker.

Because we only see through the perspective of particular people, it's not clear if everybody has the processing and treatment power of a cranial cyberdeck. I'd say probably no, as a "cellphone" by 2060 may include widely enough feature for a normal user. People like Kusanagi would of course have more dedicated hardware: the cranial cyberdeck but also smartlink and maybe tactical computer.

The use of VCR is not very obvious. They rather seem to drive only through simple DNI.When Koil Krasnov hack the military robots, it seems it's only a captain chair mode (Bato says something about them still sucking), accessible with only a datajack by SR rules. Only Kusanagi at the end of GitS, and Chroma throughout MMI seem to assume full control of humanoid decoys. But they are full cyborgs, so they have for the control of her own body a technology that could suffice. The same way, noboby ever seem to use any kind of skillsofts. There is only Chroma reference to such program. So I'd take it as an information that such technology is available, as it is in SR, not meaning it is widespread and included in every e-brains.
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Raptor1033
post Mar 10 2004, 01:50 PM
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I thought Kusanagi wasn't actually human, but an advanced robot with a highly sophisticated AI. and the other robot got taken over by a hacker that downloaded his brain into the internet, right?
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Xirces
post Mar 10 2004, 03:41 PM
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QUOTE (Raptor1033)
I thought Kusanagi wasn't actually human, but an advanced robot with a highly sophisticated AI. and the other robot got taken over by a hacker that downloaded his brain into the internet, right?

Well, IIRC that's never actually confirmed, but it's pretty much the intended interpretation since the whole point is about questioning what it is to be human/alive.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Mar 10 2004, 04:11 PM
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QUOTE (Nath)
The core of most GitS stories lies in brain-hacking. In SR there are no implant that really match to allow such thing.

But could you not do this with Psychotropic black IC? (can you run that from a C2?)

QUOTE
Because we only see through the perspective of particular people, it's not clear if everybody has the processing and treatment power of a cranial cyberdeck. I'd say probably no, as a "cellphone" by 2060 may include widely enough feature for a normal user.

Agreed, my reference to a C2 was it would indicate a "high End" E-Brain.

QUOTE
The use of VCR is not very obvious. They rather seem to drive only through simple DNI.
Granted (even Togusa doesn't drive through DNI)
But again with Clarice M to do that kind of thing you'd need a VCR even if only lvl 1 no?
QUOTE
When Koil Krasnov hack the military robots, it seems it's only a captain chair mode (Bato says something about them still sucking), accessible with only a datajack by SR rules.

I never saw that myself, though saying that i read GitS back before i really got in to SR
QUOTE
There is only Chroma reference to such program. So I'd take it as an information that such technology is available, as it is in SR, not meaning it is widespread and included in every e-brains.

I Didn't it say it would, But however if memory serves (which it might not) Is there not multiple reference's to combat software?

Raptor
In GitS Kusanagi was described as having a cyborg body and having a computer enhanced brain (Would be much left after giving that back ;) ).

The hacker AKA. the puppet master is/ was actually a program, that at the end downloaded it's self it Kusanagi's E-Brain. And now in MMI co-exsist's in Kuasangi. (though you don't get much evidence of that). I the way I read MMI at the end the to AI's/ Programs that "freeze" Kusanagi do so because she displaying to many human tendenices and isn't advanced enough yet for their liking.
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Nath
post Mar 10 2004, 06:03 PM
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QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc)
But could you not do this with Psychotropic black IC? (can you run that from a C2?)

Hum, true. I completely forgot those. Overall, that's the same simsense tech used.
The only difference is that Psychotropic IC (or PAB unit) make change that stay active once the guy is offline, while personafix are only active when slotted in. Brain hacking in GitS can do both. SR rules only allow to modify memories or alter personality ; controlling the body should be a lot easier (unless SR cyberware includes security systems against that) but there's no rule for it.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Mar 10 2004, 06:27 PM
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QUOTE (Nath)
SR rules only allow to modify memories or alter personality ; controlling the body should be a lot easier (unless SR cyberware includes security systems against that) but there's no rule for it.

But you'd have to supress the persons own commands to their body, RAS overide? that would do it (in theory). But then they would have to have a C2 themsevles or a VCR so you could engage theirs. but then whats to stop them turning it back off?

Thi is ofcause assuming you can run Psychotropic black IC off a C2. Anyone else help, I know you can run killer type black.

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Kagetenshi
post Mar 10 2004, 06:47 PM
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You can't run any IC off a CC. There's a reason the Black Hammer/Jackhammer utilities showed up decently after lethal Black IC did.

~J
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Shockwave_IIc
post Mar 10 2004, 06:56 PM
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Ok how about having a PAB unit, installed in a arm, controled via DNI?
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Kagetenshi
post Mar 10 2004, 07:01 PM
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PAB units are big and bulky, and require long periods of time. Inventing a new utility or worm would probably be the best way to go, keeping in mind that you're definitely diverging from canon here.

~J
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Shockwave_IIc
post Mar 10 2004, 07:07 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
keeping in mind that you're definitely diverging from canon here.

~J

No doubt. Just throwing ideas around really to be honest, it see if its possible. Not really looking for rules as such.

This entire thread idea just came about by a random thought going off in my head.

Just waswondering as to what would quilfiy as an E-Brain in shadowrun...
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Adarael
post Mar 10 2004, 10:11 PM
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In answer to the Kusanagi question, while they never confirm if she's human in a full borg body or some kind of AI, I think there's strong inidication she's not AI as she's asked a couple of times why she joined Section 9. I don't see why an AI would have any choice about the matter, at least in the GITS world, what with the Puppet Master's play for freedom.
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Xirces
post Mar 10 2004, 10:28 PM
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QUOTE (Adarael)
In answer to the Kusanagi question, while they never confirm if she's human in a full borg body or some kind of AI, I think there's strong inidication she's not AI as she's asked a couple of times why she joined Section 9. I don't see why an AI would have any choice about the matter, at least in the GITS world, what with the Puppet Master's play for freedom.

Erm... With implanted memories, surely the reason "she" joined S9 was exactly the same as those memories would say...
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Nath
post Mar 10 2004, 10:50 PM
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Actually, the first episode of GitS take place before the Section 9 is created. Their first unit got dissolved and the Section 9 replace it instantly. Also, the "wall ornament" at Sagawa Electronics in "Phantom Fund" wrongly calls her Captain or Lieutnant Kusanagi (I don't remember) based on a previous encounter. I really don't see anything that could support the idea that she is an AI. Aramaki makes clear her greatest value is not her computer skill, but her web of contacts. Plus, nobody would give a shit about the Puppetmaster if there was an AI walking around with a clear ghost, even falling in lov... having a relationship with that guy from Sec1. How many months was it ? :D

In Stand Alone Complex serie, Kusanagi has several discussion with Batou and Togusa IIRC, about the fact she get a full cybernetic body around the age of 6.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Mar 10 2004, 11:13 PM
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QUOTE (Nath)
in Stand Alone Complex serie, Kusanagi has several discussion with Batou and Togusa IIRC, about the fact she get a full cybernetic body around the age of 6.

I was under the impression that she got a cyborg body by joining section 9 (or to that effect) Though granted the film isn't an accurate source when compared to the book. Suppose i'll have to reread the book now.
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Kagetenshi
post Mar 11 2004, 12:25 AM
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She has a full cyborg body when the book starts, which is before the creation of the team she's in in Section 9.

Edit: however, her current body is government property one way or another. It just isn't necessarily her first.

~J
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BitBasher
post Mar 11 2004, 12:59 AM
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Cyborg is by definition the melding of man and machine. If she was an AI she would have a robot body not a cyborg body. The Fuchikomas strictly are robots, not cyborgs.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Mar 11 2004, 03:42 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 11 2004, 12:25 AM)
She has a full cyborg body when the book starts, which is before the creation of the team she's in in Section 9.

Ah yes the assassintion at the begining. Were it she releaves that it was under the orders of the (previous?) Presedent (I think) then becoming a member of section 9.

Where as the film she's already a member of section 9 when she does it. And thus the reason why it upsets Nakamura of section 6.


[Edit] Think i'm gonna reread it. back in 2-3 hrs
Thanks Kage
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Kagetenshi
post Mar 11 2004, 03:49 AM
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It's not an assassination. They hit an orphanage involved in illegal brain-programming work, IIRC, though I may be mixing it up; it was certainly not the hit on the diplomat helping the programmer defect.

~J
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Shockwave_IIc
post Mar 11 2004, 06:01 AM
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Na was right. In the book it's a hit on a Dipolmat, which was order by a dead president (hmm sounds famaliar). In the film it's about the programmer. The orphanage is actually the second story in the book. (with the film being about the 9th)
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Kagetenshi
post Mar 11 2004, 06:04 AM
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Ah... been too long since I read it. Ah well.

~J
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gknoy
post Mar 12 2004, 02:38 AM
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QUOTE (Xirces)
QUOTE (Raptor1033 @ Mar 10 2004, 01:50 PM)
I thought Kusanagi wasn't actually human, but an advanced robot with a highly sophisticated AI.  and the other robot got taken over by a hacker that downloaded his brain into the internet, right?

Well, IIRC that's never actually confirmed, but it's pretty much the intended interpretation since the whole point is about questioning what it is to be human/alive.

(apologies if someone already covered this and I missed it ...)

With the caveat that I have not read the manga:

In the movie, GitS, Kusanagi and Bateau are talking about their ghosts, and she says that they "gave up" or "had replaced" so much... I forget the exact words. The impression I get from this is not that she's a robot with an advanced AI, but more that she is a fully cybernetic (fully? maybe parts of her brain is still wetware, but I don't think so?) body where the intelligence, the "ghost", was taken from an originally human host.

I also got the impression that this was something they volunteered to do -- the Major and Bateau both seem to be the heavily modified pair, but everyone else in Section $nTheirSection also had some mods, though none as extensive as the Major's and Bateau's. (Reading other posts here, I learned something new. I didn't know that she had done this before joining section 9 -- I so need to get the manga :))

Of course, one of the themes that the movie seems to delve into, and probably the manga, is that perhaps there is no fundamental difference (aside from origin) between a person's mind (regardless of whether it resides in wetware or hardware) and [b]"a highly sophisticated AI"[/i]. =)

So in that way, you are sortof right ... but origin-wise, I'm pretty sure Bateau and the Major were both human at one time, and pretty much underwent total body replacement. (Which, in SR, probably would require cybermancy, though maybe with all deltaware or something, it could be possible... I bet someone's already made this kind of character ;))
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Crusher Bob
post Mar 12 2004, 02:42 AM
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IRRC only the chief and Togusa were mostly 'original'. I don't think it's explicitly mentioned wheter anyone else had a full borg body though.
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gknoy
post Mar 12 2004, 02:44 AM
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QUOTE (Nath)
In Stand Alone Complex serie, Kusanagi has several discussion with Batou and Togusa IIRC, about the fact she get a full cybernetic body around the age of 6.

Holy $expletive !!

Age of SIX!? Wow ... then again, that might be what it would take to have the innate control of a fundamentally different hardware platform. ;)

On the flip side, this means to me that she didn't have as much choice in the matter as I originally thought. Modern parallel: Parents who put kids through dance/other things as opposed to those who make a career choice later in life. Granted, very much on a smaller scale than saying, "hey, kiddo, let's go down to the chop shop, let's go down to the chop shop[/musical number], and get you a brand new body!" *shudders*

That's actually kindof scary that someone would do that... maybe she was an orphan, though? (Now I REALLY need to read the manga :))
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Kagetenshi
post Mar 12 2004, 03:24 AM
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Togusa and the Chief are the only two whose bodies don't come with a warranty.

~J
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