IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Arms dealing, Am I missing something?
Zyerne
post Nov 4 2010, 12:00 AM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 894
Joined: 5-May 10
Member No.: 18,556



I have a player who's char concept is a street level arms dealer who's got in trouble with the mob. Owing them a lot of money from a deal gone bad, he's turned to running for some quick cash.

That, in and of itself, I have no problem with. What I'm endeavouring to do is cover myself incase he decides he wants to make the odd deal between runs. As far as I can tell, per the rules, he's going to be buying at streetprice and selling at 30% of base price. Now, that's buying from and selling to a fixer, which obvously isn't what I'm looking for.

After thinking about it, I've come up with 2 options. Actually playing out encounters where the group scores a large volume of cheap weapons (AKs and the like) at cheap enough prices to make fencing worth while and some sort of "Criminal Day Job" quality to represent a ongoing small scale deals.

Is there anything in the rules I'm missing, or alternatively, does anyone have any better ideas?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Method
post Nov 4 2010, 12:11 AM
Post #2


Street Doc
*******

Group: Admin
Posts: 3,508
Joined: 2-March 04
From: Neverwhere
Member No.: 6,114



I haven't read Vice in any detail, but aren't there some guidelines in there for criminal enterprise such as this? Otherwise I think a criminal Day Job quality is the way to go unless you have the table time and interest to track individual transactions.

It's an interesting idea for a PC by the way. I kinda like it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sabs
post Nov 4 2010, 01:39 PM
Post #3


Prime Runner
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,996
Joined: 1-June 10
Member No.: 18,649



He should have black market pipe line
He should have a couple of contacts that give him access to cheap weapons.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Game2BHappy
post Nov 4 2010, 04:13 PM
Post #4


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 268
Joined: 30-March 03
From: Denver, CO
Member No.: 4,355



I'm paraphrasing someone else here, but basically "you don't play Shadowrun to be an accountant". The reference was that the realm of being a dealer/fixer with any chance of profitability is a full time job intended for NPCs.

That being said...
As a PC, the purchase at street & sell at (base) 30% is if you do it on your own.
If you do go through a fixer, you need to pay an additional percentage on purchase (5% x Connection?) and take off a similar percentage from your profits when you sell.

As an example: After scoring from his last run, Jorge talks to his fixer to purchase a Rating 5 Maglock Passkey. The fixer's Connection Rating is 3 (the minimum to be a fixer) and his standard fee is 15% (Connection Rating * 5%). The fixer offers to find it for 11,500 (Base 10,000 + fixer's fee of 15%). After a couple weeks, Jorge is the proud owner of his new toy.
Unfortunately, only a week later, Jorge finds himself in serious debt to some serious players. Going back to his fixer, he asks him to fence his Maglock Passkey on the market. Since it is still practically new, his fixer says he thinks he can get a good street price for it of 3000 (10,000 * 30%) minus his fee of 15% or 450. Two days later with 2550 in hand, a depressed Jorge makes a trip to pay back his debt.

IMO, the better option might be to have a character with the Day Job flaw that represents their time commitment and their income from being a dealer. You would have all the roleplaying opportunities for your having your line of work, a bit of income, and no need to kill your GM with accounting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shinobi Killfist
post Nov 4 2010, 04:27 PM
Post #5


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,431
Joined: 3-December 03
Member No.: 5,872



I'd just tie runs into his arms dealing. I assume he has appropriate contacts like supply sgt. at Fort whatever in Seattle. Have him call about some items "lost" in inventory and make the run getting them out of a certain area of intercept the shipment etc. Then assume the pay is decent for the run, whatever is appropriate for your campaign level because he has a supply pipeline and has a buyer set up.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Brainpiercing7.6...
post Nov 4 2010, 04:39 PM
Post #6


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 873
Joined: 16-September 10
Member No.: 19,052



QUOTE (Game2BHappy @ Nov 4 2010, 05:13 PM) *
I'm paraphrasing someone else here, but basically "you don't play Shadowrun to be an accountant". The reference was that the realm of being a dealer/fixer with any chance of profitability is a full time job intended for NPCs.

That being said...
As a PC, the purchase at street & sell at (base) 30% is if you do it on your own.
If you do go through a fixer, you need to pay an additional percentage on purchase (5% x Connection?) and take off a similar percentage from your profits when you sell.

As an example: After scoring from his last run, Jorge talks to his fixer to purchase a Rating 5 Maglock Passkey. The fixer's Connection Rating is 3 (the minimum to be a fixer) and his standard fee is 15% (Connection Rating * 5%). The fixer offers to find it for 11,500 (Base 10,000 + fixer's fee of 15%). After a couple weeks, Jorge is the proud owner of his new toy.
Unfortunately, only a week later, Jorge finds himself in serious debt to some serious players. Going back to his fixer, he asks him to fence his Maglock Passkey on the market. Since it is still practically new, his fixer says he thinks he can get a good street price for it of 3000 (10,000 * 30%) minus his fee of 15% or 450. Two days later with 2550 in hand, a depressed Jorge makes a trip to pay back his debt.


And does noone else think that that is a horrible rule? I'd positively kick every GM who enforced it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Doc Chase
post Nov 4 2010, 04:43 PM
Post #7


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,179
Joined: 10-June 10
From: St. Louis, UCAS/CAS Border
Member No.: 18,688



QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Nov 4 2010, 04:39 PM) *
And does noone else think that that is a horrible rule? I'd positively kick every GM who enforced it.


Seeing as it's their game and not yours, I'm assuming by 'positively kick' you mean 'leave the table in a huff'.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Draco18s
post Nov 4 2010, 04:46 PM
Post #8


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,289
Joined: 2-October 08
Member No.: 16,392



The problem here is that the character in the OP is the fixer and is trying to make money buying and selling to the same guy.

That only work in one game that I know of,* and only because charisma bonuses were cheap and reputation was easily earned.

If the character is the one doing the fencing then the prices are (obviously) reversed.

*Cue forgotten title.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
etherial
post Nov 4 2010, 04:48 PM
Post #9


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 266
Joined: 21-November 09
Member No.: 17,891



QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Nov 4 2010, 12:39 PM) *
And does noone else think that that is a horrible rule? I'd positively kick every GM who enforced it.


No, my players and I think it makes total sense. Y'ever pawned anything? Y'ever sold anything to Ca$h for Gold?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Brainpiercing7.6...
post Nov 4 2010, 04:48 PM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 873
Joined: 16-September 10
Member No.: 19,052



QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Nov 4 2010, 05:43 PM) *
Seeing as it's their game and not yours, I'm assuming by 'positively kick' you mean 'leave the table in a huff'.


It's never "the GM's" game, it's the group's game.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Doc Chase
post Nov 4 2010, 04:50 PM
Post #11


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,179
Joined: 10-June 10
From: St. Louis, UCAS/CAS Border
Member No.: 18,688



QUOTE (Draco18s @ Nov 4 2010, 05:46 PM) *
The problem here is that the character in the OP is the fixer and is trying to make money buying and selling to the same guy.

That only work in one game that I know of,* and only because charisma bonuses were cheap and reputation was easily earned.

If the character is the one doing the fencing then the prices are (obviously) reversed.

*Cue forgotten title.


Well, two fixers.
It's an interesting enough hook, but I know I'm having problems visualizing the player getting enough product to make arms dealing worth his while.

Criminal Day Job would be a bit better way to go around it, though if you wanted to have him flesh out a bunch of contacts of people he peddles to...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Doc Chase
post Nov 4 2010, 04:50 PM
Post #12


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,179
Joined: 10-June 10
From: St. Louis, UCAS/CAS Border
Member No.: 18,688



Doublepost strikes again.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Draco18s
post Nov 4 2010, 04:51 PM
Post #13


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,289
Joined: 2-October 08
Member No.: 16,392



QUOTE (etherial @ Nov 4 2010, 11:48 AM) *
Ca$h for Gold?


Cash for Gold is hilarious. It's trivial to turn it into a scam.

"Nope. Never got your gold. Must've gotten lost in the mail."

Better yet, work for the post office. "Hey look Jim! A Cash for Gold envelope! I wonder what's in it, feels pretty heavy."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Warlordtheft
post Nov 4 2010, 04:54 PM
Post #14


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,325
Joined: 2-April 07
From: The Center of the Universe
Member No.: 11,360



QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Nov 4 2010, 11:39 AM) *
And does noone else think that that is a horrible rule? I'd positively kick every GM who enforced it.



I don't as a GM, as the base price of the item is just that, a base value. The fixer/merchant who buys and sells stuff is trying to make a profit, and sure won't pay base value. FIxer has to eat too you know. Also the fact that runners are crooks, and the items are likely hot, can further devalue the items price.

About the only time I'd see runners making a profit in a DIY crime, is when they get the stuff for almost nothing (like the bribe to the Ft Worth supply Sgt). Then smuggle it south and sell it in the Hahn Free Market in LA or some other locale directly to a buyer. Which is fine for a DIY crime campaign. But for your average runner pawning off scavenged guns from corpsec, it is not worth the time or effort.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Draco18s
post Nov 4 2010, 04:58 PM
Post #15


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,289
Joined: 2-October 08
Member No.: 16,392



QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Nov 4 2010, 11:54 AM) *
About the only time I'd see runners making a profit in a DIY crime, is when they get the stuff for almost nothing (like the bribe to the Ft Worth supply Sgt). Then smuggle it south and sell it in the Hahn Free Market in LA or some other locale directly to a buyer. Which is fine for a DIY crime campaign. But for your average runner pawning off scavenged guns from corpsec, it is not worth the time or effort.


*Cough*

QUOTE (Zyerne @ Nov 3 2010, 07:00 PM) *
I have a player who's char concept is a street level arms dealer who's got in trouble with the mob.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
capt.pantsless
post Nov 4 2010, 05:05 PM
Post #16


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 206
Joined: 9-September 10
From: Minneapolis, MN
Member No.: 19,032



QUOTE (Zyerne @ Nov 3 2010, 07:00 PM) *
After thinking about it, I've come up with 2 options. Actually playing out encounters where the group scores a large volume of cheap weapons (AKs and the like) at cheap enough prices to make fencing worth while and some sort of "Criminal Day Job" quality to represent a ongoing small scale deals.

Is there anything in the rules I'm missing, or alternatively, does anyone have any better ideas?


I'd ask your players what they'd prefer.

1.) A 'Day-job' quality would be simple to implement, but rather boring. Roll some dice, get some cash.

2.) Simulating realistic black-market buying and selling as a side-project to Shadowrunning COULD be interesting for some types of players, but it would take a good bit of work on the GMs part, and eat-up a good amount of table-time. You'd need other fences and fixers contacting you with offers and requests, and need to do the math on whether the deal was profitable. Inventory, meetups, negotiations, all that stuff you'd need to play-out.

3.) Integrate the arms-dealing with your campaign. Fixer XYZ wants to buy a few dozen of assault rifles to sell to a local gang expanding its turf, and your contact at Ares knows that there's a semi-truck with a couple crates of Ares Alphas heading into town tomorrow. Hijack time!

Of course, there's a wealth of adventure-hooks built-into owing the Mob money, and running guns. I'd love for my players being brave enough to go for something like this.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CanRay
post Nov 4 2010, 06:11 PM
Post #17


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,358
Joined: 2-December 07
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Member No.: 14,465



Remember that "Street Value" varies from place to place. Gun Runners make money by buying firearms that are cheap in price for various reasons (Oversupplied area, desperate seller, hot guns), move them, and then sell them where they're rarer and worth more on the street. This can sometimes take a few steps, too, with each step taking a bit of profit along the way (Or working the deal out in trade.).

A good example is Sgt. Solovich in Kraplakistan being in debt to the Russian Mob, and pays them off with a few crates of "Excess" AK-97s from the armory where she works.

The Russian Mob sells them to a Muslim Terrorist group that moves them through the Middle East for a bit, use a crate in a training camp, and then gets them nabbed by Israeli Customs when trying to move them into a few cells there.

Captain Goldberg is blackmailed by some Gun Runners into marking the weapons as "Destroyed", and has them moved onto a freighter bound for Seattle.

In Seattle, the Gun Runners sell the most of the crates to Weapons Fixers for a bit of a profit, who, in turn, sell them piecemeal to gangers and Shadowrunners.

The weapons, later used in crimes and having a history attached to them, are then sold back to the same or different fixers, who sell them in turn to Smugglers that get them over to the Cascade Orks, who move them all around North America, and points unknown.

Later on, the final crate is found in a London U-Store-It for no reason whatsoever and has the Bobbies scratching their heads wondering why the hell it's there next to some next-to-worthless old damaged paintings of 14th century Lords.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Brainpiercing7.6...
post Nov 4 2010, 06:16 PM
Post #18


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 873
Joined: 16-September 10
Member No.: 19,052



QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Nov 4 2010, 05:54 PM) *
I don't as a GM, as the base price of the item is just that, a base value. The fixer/merchant who buys and sells stuff is trying to make a profit, and sure won't pay base value. FIxer has to eat too you know. Also the fact that runners are crooks, and the items are likely hot, can further devalue the items price.


Oh, sure, hot goods, time for a MODIFIER. And his profit is already in the 30%, what's the additional fee for? Certainly for buying (and organising) goods you could put in a fee, but for selling? That example story alone would get me to shoot the damn fixer.

QUOTE
About the only time I'd see runners making a profit in a DIY crime, is when they get the stuff for almost nothing (like the bribe to the Ft Worth supply Sgt). Then smuggle it south and sell it in the Hahn Free Market in LA or some other locale directly to a buyer. Which is fine for a DIY crime campaign. But for your average runner pawning off scavenged guns from corpsec, it is not worth the time or effort.


That's your prerogative. I think it should be a definite possibility to make money on scavenging. Not a lot, but a certain amount. Of course, when you're raking in 10K or more for the run, then selling a few guns for a few hundred makes no sense, but if you're making, let's say, 2k per run (with expenses already deducted), then selling the guns is a pretty big thing. In a low-paying campaign I would most definitely make a point of selling scavenged stuff. And when I actually have a buyer (not a fixer), then I'd damn well expect him to pay full price, because I never get stuff cheaper, either.

It also depends on how you clean the scavenged stuff. Have you removed all tags? Swapped hot parts? If you do make that effort, then it should pay off.

All in all, buying and selling rules should be optimised for speed, and they don't have to make strict sense, but they shouldn't cripple a game option, either. Of course actually making stuff like gunrunning worthwhile in SR would take some work, on both the side of the player and the GM.

My point is: When a player wants to sell guns to other BUYERS, then the fixer rules and fixed prices shouldn't be used. Even ad-libbing supply and demand in such a situation is better than using fixed prices.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Karoline
post Nov 4 2010, 06:17 PM
Post #19


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,679
Joined: 19-September 09
Member No.: 17,652



QUOTE (Game2BHappy @ Nov 4 2010, 11:13 AM) *
I'm paraphrasing someone else here, but basically "you don't play Shadowrun to be an accountant". The reference was that the realm of being a dealer/fixer with any chance of profitability is a full time job intended for NPCs.

And yet, I'm sure ShadowBiz would have some fans.

Edit: Also, yeah, pawn shops are a good example of a fence, only for the pawn shop, they're legal, so cut you a better deal than a fence that often deals with illegal stuff.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
capt.pantsless
post Nov 4 2010, 06:25 PM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 206
Joined: 9-September 10
From: Minneapolis, MN
Member No.: 19,032



QUOTE (Karoline @ Nov 4 2010, 01:17 PM) *
And yet, I'm sure ShadowBiz would have some fans.


I remember spending many hours moving loads of grain and metal bars from planet to planet in Wing Commander Privateer, and having a bunch of fun doing it.

Economic simulations can be a ton of fun, for the right players. That's why I'd ask what the other players want to do. You could do a whole campaign based around buying and selling, with occasional 'complications' to play-through as well.

It's certainly not for everyone though.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Karoline
post Nov 4 2010, 06:29 PM
Post #21


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,679
Joined: 19-September 09
Member No.: 17,652



I'd sign up for it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
klinktastic
post Nov 4 2010, 06:38 PM
Post #22


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,244
Joined: 2-August 07
Member No.: 12,442



To summarize the above posts: ask your PCs what they want to do. If the want to be involved in arms dealing and want a campaign centered around that, expand it and flesh it out. If they don't, then criminal day job 40/5000 should be adequate. Occasionally, you can tap that backstory into your campaign arc if you want.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shinobi Killfist
post Nov 4 2010, 07:39 PM
Post #23


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,431
Joined: 3-December 03
Member No.: 5,872




QUOTE (CanRay @ Nov 4 2010, 01:11 PM) *
A good example is Sgt. Solovich in Kraplakistan being in debt to the Russian Mob, and pays them off with a few crates of "Excess" AK-97s from the armory where she works.


I speak of Kraplakistan often, I am glad this fine country is getting the recognition it deserves.

QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Nov 4 2010, 01:16 PM) *
Oh, sure, hot goods, time for a MODIFIER. And his profit is already in the 30%, what's the additional fee for? Certainly for buying (and organising) goods you could put in a fee, but for selling? That example story alone would get me to shoot the damn fixer.



That's your prerogative. I think it should be a definite possibility to make money on scavenging. Not a lot, but a certain amount. Of course, when you're raking in 10K or more for the run, then selling a few guns for a few hundred makes no sense, but if you're making, let's say, 2k per run (with expenses already deducted), then selling the guns is a pretty big thing. In a low-paying campaign I would most definitely make a point of selling scavenged stuff. And when I actually have a buyer (not a fixer), then I'd damn well expect him to pay full price, because I never get stuff cheaper, either.

It also depends on how you clean the scavenged stuff. Have you removed all tags? Swapped hot parts? If you do make that effort, then it should pay off.

All in all, buying and selling rules should be optimised for speed, and they don't have to make strict sense, but they shouldn't cripple a game option, either. Of course actually making stuff like gunrunning worthwhile in SR would take some work, on both the side of the player and the GM.

My point is: When a player wants to sell guns to other BUYERS, then the fixer rules and fixed prices shouldn't be used. Even ad-libbing supply and demand in such a situation is better than using fixed prices.


I have to say the money rewards offered in most published adventures in 4e makes people want to scavenge for spare cash quite a bit in my experience. Especially cash oriented types like sams or riggers. It is like low level D&D where people are tallying how many short swords they found off the kobolds.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Nov 4 2010, 07:41 PM
Post #24


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



Which is lame and just sad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Brainpiercing7.6...
post Nov 4 2010, 11:12 PM
Post #25


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 873
Joined: 16-September 10
Member No.: 19,052



QUOTE (capt.pantsless @ Nov 4 2010, 07:25 PM) *
I remember spending many hours moving loads of grain and metal bars from planet to planet in Wing Commander Privateer, and having a bunch of fun doing it.


Oh, baby, yeah! I used to suck at any of the fake 3d space games, but Privateer 2 was the shits.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 12th April 2021 - 07:54 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.