Free spirits and services Options

[Seth]

sr4a p187: A spirit intended to assist the magician with magic must match the category of magic, according to the magician’s tradition. That is, a hermetic mage may use a fire elemental to Aid Sorcery for the magician’scomba t spells

SM p107:A free spirit does not normally owe services to anyone,but can, if it so desires, perform any service that can be asked of a bound spirit

So given these quotes, I have a couple of questions:

• Can a free spirit only help a spell caster of their tradition?
• Can a free spirit help with any type of spells, or only 1 type
• Do player free spirits have to declare what type of spirit they were (I believe that they can take a disadvantage to do this, but it is not normal to do so)

Thanks for the help

[pbangarth]

NPC and PC Free Spirits are 'born' differently, and carry forward different aspects of their previous tradition. Nevertheless, each does carry that tradition forward. On the other hand, a magician can immediately Summon a spirit that has been Banished, even if it is of a tradition different from her own, and then Bind it. So, by this example, one can assume that a spirit does not have to be of the magician's tradition in order to provide services to her. A Free Spirit should be able to help whoever it wants.

As far as what help can be provided, NPC Free Spirits gain standard powers from the list available to their previous type. PC Free Spirits can draw powers available to any spirit type in their tradition. So, following from this, an NPC Free Spirit should help in one spell type, whereas a PC Free Spirit should be able to help in all spell types.

If a PC Free Spirit were to take the Negative Quality that limits it to the one type it was before it came free, then it should suffer the limitations of an NPC Free Spirit, namely being able to help in only one spell type.

[pbangarth]

Hey, here's a thought. Can the Free Spirit use Edge when adding dice to a magician's spell casting or study attempt?

[Seth]

Thanks for the replies. I mostly agreed with your interpretation pbangarth, but wanted a second opinion.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hey, here's a thought. Can the Free Spirit use Edge when adding dice to a magician's spell casting or study attempt?

If it want's to do so. But why would it? The spirit cannot even be compelled to do so...

[Neraph]

Tyme, it's called asking nicely. Maybe there's an Invoking in its future if it helps as much as possible.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tyme, it's called asking nicely. Maybe there's an Invoking in its future if it helps as much as possible.

Yes, you can always negotiate for such things (but you will never actually know if the spirit follows through, of course)... but there is nothing in the Binding (or otherwise) which would compel such use... which was my point, of course...

In my opinion, the Spirit is only going to spend Edge on something that IT wants... and lets face it... you cannot even kill a spirit on the Physical plane, so why would it Spend Edge even to resist damage (It gets to go home early, and out of the presence of these alien creatures after all)?

[Neraph]

You can't "kill" it, but you can bar it from the Material Plane permanently. And again, you can set up negotiations with it that the end result is the spirit's Invoking, which I'm sure that the spirit would like.

Or heck, maybe it just wants a box of blank BTLs. It's been known to happen.

[pbangarth]

I was thinking more in terms of a PC Free Spirit. Say a team included the Free Spirit and a magician. I can imagine many circumstances in which it would serve the team as a whole for the Free Spirit to aid the magician as much as she can, including using Edge.

[Mäx]

Can PC free spirits even perform spirits services like NPC free spirits can?

[Neraph]

Free spirits can, so why couldn't Free Spirit PCs?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Free spirits can, so why couldn't Free Spirit PCs?

Since a Free Spirit is a Magician in its own rights, why would it want to do so. It would be infinitely more effective for each magician to act on his own (Force Multiuplier as it is) than to combine efforts for a single task.

[pbangarth]

Since a Free Spirit is a Magician in its own rights, why would it want to do so. It would be infinitely more effective for each magician to act on his own (Force Multiuplier as it is) than to combine efforts for a single task.

Yes, two spells are usually better than one, but if the magician can do the necessary spell, and the spirit cannot, then helping the magician may be the logical course of action.

Also note that Aid Sorcery includes Ritual Spellcasting and Counterspelling as well. So, for example, if a sustained spell is to be Counterspelled, it may be more efficient to add Force dice rather than doing teamwork if the spirit's Force is greater than its Counterspelling Skill.

[Neraph]

Does it say that the spirit has to give up their action to aid someone else?

[Mäx]

Free spirits can, so why couldn't Free Spirit PCs?

Becouse they stupidly follow different rules in many recards?

[Seth]

Becouse they stupidly follow different rules in many recards?

IN the companion it says clearly that except as stated in the section on creating a free spirit character (which basically weakens PC free spirits) they are to be treated as free spirits. I haven't seen many areas (other than in attributes) in which PC free spirits are treated differently to NPCs

[Seth]

Does it say that the spirit has to give up their action to aid someone else?

I don't think it does but if you were GMing a spirit summoned by a PC, I am sure that the spirit's action would be used up helping you.

[pbangarth]

Performing a service is an action. A spirit can sustain several different powers at once with no penalty, but activating each one is a separate action. Providing the Aid Sorcery service should be no different.

[Hound]

just my two cents: I probably wouldn't allow a free spirit player (or NPC I suppose) to do something like an Aid Sorcery service for a magician player. In my opinion, the service requires that the spirit and magician have gone through a binding ritual, so unless the magician player bound the free spirit like a normal spirit, I would say this is not allowable. I might allow a free spirit character to create a spirit pact of some kind (which would require an exchange of Karma) that would have similar effects, if one such pact does not already exist (can't remember.)

[Seth]

just my two cents: I probably wouldn't allow a free spirit player (or NPC I suppose) to do something like an Aid Sorcery service for a magician player. In my opinion, the service requires that the spirit and magician have gone through a binding ritual, so unless the magician player bound the free spirit like a normal spirit, I would say this is not allowable. I might allow a free spirit character to create a spirit pact of some kind (which would require an exchange of Karma) that would have similar effects, if one such pact does not already exist (can't remember.)

SM p 107:

Free Spirit Services
A free spirit does not normally owe services to anyone, but can, if it so desires, perform any service that can be asked of a bound spirit (see p. 178, SR4). A free spirit can, however, be bound by its spirit formula (see below) and compelled to perform services)

I think that RAW free spirits can do any services that can be asked of a bound spirit without being bound. I have to say as a house rule its interesting to create such a spirit pact, and I will put some thought into how that may work.

[pbangarth]

The ability to Aid Sorcery within the PC group is certainly a force multiplier to be considered by the GM. But then, the role of the Free Spirit PC within the team, given the strictures of character generation, seems directed towards that kind of role. Not forced, but directed.

I am exploring the play of a Free Spirit PC, and she is turning out to have some interesting strengths and weaknesses. She has the Friendship Pact with a number of people, PC and NPC. One of the NPCs is a magician, and certainly that person is one whom she would be quite willing to Aid in this way. If a GM is interested in limiting who the Free Spirit could help, then the Pact suggestion above is one to consider. I tend towards the free use of the ability, and think it should be a selling point for the PC at appropriate moments of high drama, even with strangers.

"I can help you blast that drone. What's in it for me?"

Or ...

"You've been wanting to figure out that formula for months. I can make that happen, if you do what I ask."

Or...

"Get off our backs, or I will lend every ounce of my power to the ritualists seeking to destroy you."

Or...

"That poor fragger is way outnumbered. He's about to Napalm them all. Lemme see what a little boost to the spell does!"

[Neraph]

IN the companion it says clearly that except as stated in the section on creating a free spirit character (which basically weakens PC free spirits) they are to be treated as free spirits. I haven't seen many areas (other than in attributes) in which PC free spirits are treated differently to NPCs

Spirit Powers also, and that makes up about half of what a free spirit is.

I don't think it does but if you were GMing a spirit summoned by a PC, I am sure that the spirit's action would be used up helping you.

And that is a perfectly functioning House Rule.