Essence loss, how dows it effect magic? Options

[limejello10512]

when a creature with the essence loss power loses essence they don't actually lose magic unless their essence drops below six right?

Otherwise a vampire would burn out in 6 months no matter how much essence they drank unless they devoted heaps of karma to rebuilding magic every month.

so I'm assuming as long as a creature with essence loss keeps its essence above 6 it doesn't lose magic when it loses a point of essence right?

[Yerameyahu]

Yes.

Characters with Magic or Resonance attributes are subject to penalties if they have an Essence lower than 6. For each point or partial point of Essence below 6, the character loses 1 full point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that attribute is reduced by 1.

[limejello10512]

hm gonna go look that up.....coulda sworn the rules I was reading didn't say that below 6 thing....but thanks answered my question but good.

[Karoline]

Actually if you read through everything (I don't have all the quotes on hand) you only lose magic in this case if your current magic is more than your new maximum magic. This means you can let your essence get fairly low as long as you have a low magic and/or a bunch of initiations.

[thezombiekat]

Sounds to me like you don’t actually loose magic when your essence drops below 6, you just take a penalty. The difference being that if you increase your essence (possible only for these creatures) you get the magic back.

[Yerameyahu]

No. There's no 'get it back' Magic in SR4.

Essence Drain/Loss critters are tricky because they're slightly different, yes. On the one hand, we've got this vague bit, from the 'Essence Loss' Weakness section:

As Essence decreases, Magic may also be affected (see p. 68).

Page 68 is the bit I quoted above.

This is explained a bit in Runner's Companion, though:

For Infected characters with Essence Loss, Magic loss does not occur every time they lose or spend a point of Essence, and their maximum Magic attribute is equal to their current Essence + Initiate grade. If their maximum Magic attribute is lower than their current Magic attribute, their current Magic rating is adjusted down to the reduced maximum. These points are lost and must be repurchased with Karma. Infected characters can temporarily exceed their current Magic maximum by spending Essence points (see Essence Drain, p. 288, SR4).

Does that clear it up? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Karoline]

That part from RC was what I was remembering.

[limejello10512]

yeah it's totaly permamnent and the really DICK thing about it...it doesn't occur with essence below magic (IE magic can't be higher than essence it occurs when EVER something lowers magic)

@Karoline

wait what?

[KarmaInferno]

For most folks, if your Essence goes down so does your Magic, and even if you later restore the Essence via genetic therapy or whatever the missing Magic remains permanently gone.

For Vampires and the like, if they lose Essence, yes they also lose Magic. However, if they later regain Essence they can spend Karma to re-buy their lost Magic rating back.

So ultimately it means they just lose Karma.



-k

[Yerameyahu]

What are you talking about, limejello10512?

[Karoline]

For most folks, if your Essence goes down so does your Magic, and even if you later restore the Essence via genetic therapy or whatever the missing Magic remains permanently gone.

For Vampires and the like, if they lose Essence, yes they also lose Magic. However, if they later regain Essence they can spend Karma to re-buy their lost Magic rating back.

So ultimately it means they just lose Karma.



-k

What? No.

If a non-vampire (or other essence loss creature) loses a point of essence, they also lose a point of magic. Should they have a maximum magic (essence + initiation) higher than their current magic, they can buy a point of magic. Doesn't matter if it is because they gained essence back (gene therapy), initiated, or just weren't already at maximum magic.

If a vampire loses essence nothing happens unless it brings their maximum magic below their current magic, in which case their current magic goes down to match their maximum magic.

[KarmaInferno]

Sorry, meant Max Magic for Essence Loss power'd folks.

You are right, if their Max Magic is above their Current Magic, Essence Loss does not effect their Current Magic.

What I was trying to say is:

Vampires and other Essence Loss creatures never permanently lose Magic just because of the Essence Loss, they at worst merely lose Karma.

I'll rephrase.

If a normal metahuman loses Essence, he also loses Magic, and the Magic never comes back for any reason. Even if the Essence is later restored.

If a Vampire loses Essence, their Maximum Possible Magic rating drops to match. If the Max Magic drops below his Current Magic Rating, his Current Magic drops to match his Max Magic. If the Vampire later raises his Essence again, his Max Magic also raises with it. If the Vampire wants to regain his lost Current Magic rating, he spends Karma to buy it back.

So they lose whatever Karma they had spent before on their Magic Rating. That's the worst permanent effect that happens.



-k

[Karoline]

If a normal metahuman loses Essence, he also loses Magic, and the Magic never comes back for any reason. Even if the Essence is later restored.

See, this is the part that doesn't make sense to me when you say it. Because a vampire also doesn't get their magic to come back for any reason, even if essence is later restored. They both lose karma in exactly the same manner. The only difference in this regard is that a vampire has an easier time recovering essence than a metahuman does, and thus being able to buy more magic in the future (ignoring initiation, which is the same for both of them). The vampire's magic loss is no less permanent than a metahumans.

[Yerameyahu]

He means that a metahuman's max magic, based on *Essence*, can never be replaced; a Vampire's is replaced. A vampire doesn't have "an easier time recovering essence", except inasmuch as anything is easier than 'impossible'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Karoline]

Gene therapy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Edit: Anyway, my point though was that vampires and humans are no different when they lose a point of magic. If they lose a point of magic, they lose it, and it is gone forever, and there is no way to get it back besides buying it again. For vampires this is potentially easy by raising their essence, and for metahumans this is potentially difficult, requiring either gene therapy or initiation, but the two have no difference in the actual mechanic of gaining the magic itself back. They both pay karma. Period.

Edit2:

and the Magic never comes back for any reason. Even if the Essence is later restored.

It is this part right here that confuses me, because metahumans and vampires are exactly the same in this regard, but he is specifying only metahumans for this.

[Yerameyahu]

No, that's his exact point (repeatedly): he's saying that Gene Therapy doesn't restore the max magic. (Honestly, I dunno if he's right or not, because it's never come up for me).

[Karoline]

No, that's his exact point (repeatedly): he's saying that Gene Therapy doesn't restore the max magic. (Honestly, I dunno if he's right or not, because it's never come up for me).

Why wouldn't it? Max magic = essence + initiation. I don't see why gene therapy would somehow exclude part of your essence from this equation.

And if he is talking about max magic, well, I just completely missed that since he didn't mention it and I misunderstood your post. Getting too late for comprehension.

[Yerameyahu]

Dunno. I haven't read the rules carefully, and it's never come up for my games. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I was just tired of you two talking past each other. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Discounting Initiation for a moment:

Normal metahuman with Current Magic 4 and a Max Magic 6 loses a point of Essence. His Current and Max Magic ratings both drop by one to 3 and 5, respectively. He later gets back his lost Essence (probably via Gene Therapy), but this has no effect on his Magic Ratings. He can later spend Karma to raise his Current Magic rating of 3 up to his Max rating of 5, but he has no way to restore that Max Rating.

Vampire with Current Magic 4 and a Max Magic 6 loses a point of Essence. His Max Magic drops to 5 but his Current Magic is unaffected. He spends Karma to buy his Current Magic to 5. He later loses another point of Essence, now losing a point from both his Current and Max ratings so they're at 4. He then regains 2 Essence by draining someone, and his Max Magic Rating automatically also raises back to 6 as a result. His Current Magic Rating remains at 4 and the Karma spent earlier raising it is just lost permanently. He can spend more Karma raising his Current Magic Rating, up to his Max Magic Rating, and he can keep repeating this cycle of losing and regaining Magic over and over.

The key difference being that a Vampire's Max Magic Rating automatically gets restored by regaining Essence.

And he doesn't have to Initiate to get this benefit. A normal non-initiated awakened metahuman that loses a point of Max Magic Rating is stuck with the loss. Forever. Remember that not all casters Initiate. In fact, a huge percentage according to the fluff never do.



-k

[Karoline]

Okay, yeah, that is indeed where the confusion was coming from. You didn't mention Max Magic in regard to the metahuman initially, which is what was throwing me off.

I don't however see that a metahuman losing and then regaining essence through gene therapy would have a lowered maximum magic, because maximum magic is by definition essence + initiation.

At least we agree about the magic loss part. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

I apologize, I used the word "magic" in my first post to encompass both Max and Current ratings, and in general. I was speaking with the assumption that the caster in question has maxed Magic and as such both his Current and Max ratings would be the same.

As for Gene Therapy:

"Though Essence points lost to implantation, Energy Drain, and addiction may be restored through gene therapy, Magic/Resonance points lost are never returned and reductions to the maximum Magic/Resonance attribute remain in effect."

For 'normal' Awakened folks, losses to Max Magic are permanent, barring Initiation. This has been pretty consistent across all editions of Shadowrun.


-k

[Karoline]

Huh, never noticed the reductions to maximum magic remaining in effect part. Likely because it is one of those things that I glanced over, thought it was kinda cool, but didn't look at very in depth. I do still find it odd though, because as I said, maximum magic is literally defined as essence + initiation. I'd have to look over the books a bit more closely, maybe a task for the afternoon.

[KarmaInferno]

Well, to be fair, the ONLY way to regain Essence for non-Essence Loss powered folks is via Gene Therapy, so there was really no need previously to define Max Magic as anything but essence + initiation.

I just automatically picked up on it because I'm used to it from previous editions.

I remember in earlier editions, Awakened folks feared and hated Trauma Patches with a passion, because they could possibly cause a loss of a Magic point, and Magic once lost never came back. Which of course led to the idea, "Why don't we just squeeze the drugs from 20 Trauma Patches into an injection dart and shoot mages with it?"



-k

[Yerameyahu]

That quote seems to clear things up pretty solidly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)