IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Caseless, Guns, ammo, and that stuff
252
post Mar 10 2004, 01:27 PM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 283
Joined: 30-September 03
From: Kenmore, NY, USA
Member No.: 5,663



I believe it is somewhere in the Cannon Companion, I know it was in Fields of Fire for the 2nd ed. Could someone help me out with page references.

I want to know the multipliers basicly. However I can't seem to find it. With there being no index it seems hard to find. Maybe I'm just sleepy.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 10 2004, 01:31 PM
Post #2


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



No worries, mate. SR3, p. 276, FIREARMS, first paragraph.

No multipliers, modifiers, nothing. It's pretty silly, of course, but them's the rules if you want to use them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Entropy Kid
post Mar 10 2004, 01:32 PM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 173
Joined: 4-March 03
Member No.: 4,196



also:
Pg. 84 CC, but that's for making your own.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Mar 10 2004, 05:04 PM
Post #4


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 16,888
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



Well, maybe it's not silly. I mean, with all the shadowrunners running about wreaking havoc they just might be buying enough guns to make it worthwhile to produce two totally different but identical-looking versions of the same gun. You know, between their rock concerts.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 10 2004, 05:17 PM
Post #5


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
You know, between their rock concerts.

I was going to comment before this...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Mar 10 2004, 05:19 PM
Post #6


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 16,888
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



That's why I included it :)

On a tangent, would it be possible (and any less expensive) to get saboted ammo that wasn't AP? Lack of contact between bullet and rifling=good, but using APDS rounds all of the time gets expensive...

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Arethusa
post Mar 10 2004, 06:42 PM
Post #7


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,901
Joined: 19-June 03
Member No.: 4,775



Given that using a discarding sabot on a round will decrease the weight of the round and subsequently increase its velocity, all other things being equal, you'll get at least some increased armor penetration whether you want it or not. That's basically what discarding sabots were developed for, after all. Yes, you could, say, shove a lighter bullet inside the sabot and hollow point it, but you're going to get some bizarre ballistics and for no good reason. For that matter, can't imagine why it'd be less expensive.

Anyway, don't forget the sneaker endorsements. Ah well; I came to SR looking for gritty, immersive cyberpunk, but now I know better.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 10 2004, 07:46 PM
Post #8


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



QUOTE (Arethusa)
For that matter, can't imagine why it'd be less expensive.

Would be at least somewhat cheaper than the APDS rounds, though, because that probably assumes a tungsten (or similar extra-hard metal) projectile. Other than that, I completely agree with the first paragraph.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Mar 10 2004, 07:49 PM
Post #9


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 16,888
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



I've got no problem with it penetrating armor, I'm just looking for something cheap that won't have ballistic data from the gun.

How traceable are the ballistics on MMGs/HMGs/etc? I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't be just as identifiable as always, but it never hurts to ask...

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
fctarbox3
post Mar 10 2004, 08:10 PM
Post #10


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 37
Joined: 8-March 04
Member No.: 6,134



Okay, I'm about as far from a gun nut as you can get, but... the ammo is discarding sabot. Doesn't that mean it's going to discard something... something with traceable ballistics characteristics? And I sincerely doubt that the discarded sabot is going to poop out the gun like a gumdrop while the projectile rockets away at ballistic speed...

Glories of the internet, http://www.tpub.com/content/USMC/mcwp3141/...mcwp3141_10.htm says they're going to be 100M away, within a 34 degree arc from the muzzle of the gun -- and that anyone in that area is in danger of being hit by a sabot petal. Something to think about next time you fire APDS into a crowd.

For a time, at least, rifling was very important to accuracy. Do modern guns circumvent that somehow? Seeing as they produce Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot, and that non-Fin Stabilized is referred to as "spin stabilized," I don't think so.

In short, if you want to be able to hit your target, you're going to be ejecting something that can be traced.

Of course, there are advantages to that tracing being on discarded sabot petals some distance away from the actual target... but in situations where it's really important, that's not going to matter as much.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Mar 10 2004, 08:19 PM
Post #11


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 16,888
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



I believe they have sabot that fragments into pieces too small to be effectively pieced back together and studied. I may be wrong, though.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
fctarbox3
post Mar 10 2004, 08:24 PM
Post #12


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 37
Joined: 8-March 04
Member No.: 6,134



If they don't now, they will in 2064 for just the reasons you're looking for it.

What you want are target practice rounds.

http://www.tpub.com/content/USMC/mcwp3141/...mcwp3141_12.htm

(Starting on bottom right).

They use steel instead of tungsten as the projectile, and have similar ballistic characteristics as the APDS.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Raygun
post Mar 10 2004, 08:45 PM
Post #13


Mostly Harmless
**

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 937
Joined: 26-February 02
From: 44.662,-63.469
Member No.: 176



Remington makes non-AP discarding sabot ammunition today, marketed under the "Accelerator" moniker. The idea is to be able to use big game rifle cartridges for varmint/small game hunting. All are .30-caliber rifle cartridges sabotted to a .224" bullet; a 55 grain pointed soft point. It was originally available in .30-06, .308 Win and .30-30 Win. The concept hasn't sold very well, to the point that only the .30-06 load is available today (55 grain PSP @ 4080 fps = 2032 fpe). The cost is comparable to other high-end .30-06 loads.

The problem is one of accuracy. The smaller bullets used need a faster rate of twist than most larger caliber rifle barrels provide in order to stabilize the bullet in flight. As a result, long range accuracy tends to suffer. Fortunately, in the case of the .30-06 Accelerator, most .30-06 barrels have a twist of 1/10 inches. Working out the twist rate for a 55 grain PSP, I come up with 1/10.5 inches using the Greenhill formula. So that bullet through that rifle will be stabilized properly.

If you're talking about using sabots to avoid identification, fctarbox3 is right. You'd better be picking up your sabots. Rifling marks will be all over them. Small arms sabots are usually a single piece of nylon (except for shotgun slug loads). With small arms, the distance the sabot travels is going to be a lot shorter than that of a 25mm cannon. According to Cartridges Of The World, 8th Edition, about 30-50 feet. While there may be a danger of hitting someone unintentionally, the sabot itself doesn't weight very much and it is designed to decellerate very rapidly after it clears the muzzle. It's pretty unlikely that skin would be punctured through clothing.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
fctarbox3
post Mar 10 2004, 08:55 PM
Post #14


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 37
Joined: 8-March 04
Member No.: 6,134



Oi, totally missed that I was looking at a 25mm gun. Whoops, yeah, that's a little different from standard side arms.

"No, boss, it's just a heavy pistol! Really heavy..."

I stand by my comment that by 2064, somecorp will have invented a Disintegrating Sabot round for assassination and black market purposes.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mcb
post Mar 10 2004, 10:27 PM
Post #15


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 153
Joined: 16-February 04
From: Ohio, USA
Member No.: 6,083



Sure, is call a smooth bore. No rifling marks on the sabot. If the projectile is fin stabilize rather than spin stabilized you don't even need the riflings. M1 Abram fire a 120MM smooth bore. No reason you couldn't make a 25mm smooth bore. The would be just a touch bigger than the old 4-bore shotguns.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 10 2004, 10:32 PM
Post #16


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



This gun is smoothbore as well, and quite a lot smaller than 25mm. Still not very handy, though.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Voran
post Mar 11 2004, 01:08 AM
Post #17


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,401
Joined: 23-February 04
From: Honolulu, HI
Member No.: 6,099



In regards to ballistic information good CSI types can pick up from your spent rounds filling the walls of that Ares lab....

1. Does a silencer affect the markings left on the bullet so if you ditch the silencer/suppressor after using it in a run, the bullets couldn't be traced back to your actual gun?

2. I've also seen some attachments on guns that seem to add another inch or so to the barrel. Descriptions usually say its a balancing attachment to help with recoil or somesuch.. Is it possible to change the marking of your bullets by adding a piece similar to that recoil modifier, and gives it slightly better spin/range? Is one inch extra of a barrel enough to add anything significant to a bullet range wise, or marking wise?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Frag-o Delux
post Mar 11 2004, 01:17 AM
Post #18


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,213
Joined: 10-March 02
From: Back from the abyss.
Member No.: 2,316



I think they alter it a little but not much.

Why keep the gun anyway, what is a Predator 450 :nuyen: ? Trash the damn thing. Keep one around for protection when not on a run, and then have a run stash. When the run is over throw that pile of evidence in the Sound. Don't forget to wear your gloves while loading though. People have been caught because the gun was found in a river, later finger printed, lifting several ggod prints off the gun oil and the guy was covicted. The gun was still in good shape after a year or two in the river.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Raygun
post Mar 11 2004, 01:31 AM
Post #19


Mostly Harmless
**

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 937
Joined: 26-February 02
From: 44.662,-63.469
Member No.: 176



QUOTE (Voran)
1. Does a silencer affect the markings left on the bullet so if you ditch the silencer/suppressor after using it in a run, the bullets couldn't be traced back to your actual gun?

No. Unless something has gone horribly awry, a silencer does not affect the markings left on it by rifling whatsoever. Other than with obsolete wipe and mesh-type silencers which have components that physically contact the bullet, there is no way to positively identify whether a bullet has been fired through a silencer or not. Even then, a significant bit of luck would probably be involved to find a particle of neoprene attached to a bullet or clothing.

QUOTE
2.  I've also seen some attachments on guns that seem to add another inch or so to the barrel.  Descriptions usually say its a balancing attachment to help with recoil or somesuch.

There are several different kinds of muzzle attachments available. There are sound suppressors/silencers, compensators, muzzle brakes and barrel weights. None of which touch the bullet itself.

QUOTE
Is it possible to change the marking of your bullets by adding a piece similar to that recoil modifier, and gives it slightly better spin/range?  Is one inch extra of a barrel enough to add anything significant to a bullet range wise, or marking wise?

Sound suppressors/silencers do have the secondary affect of increasing velocity slightly, as would a barrel extension. But an increase of 30-50 fps really isn't going to make any significant difference in ballistic performance. A barrel extension may affect the markings left on the bullet, making them differ slightly from those of the rifling when the extension is not attached. Depending on that to keep you in the clear forensically would be pretty naive, though.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Moonstone Spider
post Mar 11 2004, 12:34 PM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 665
Joined: 20-November 03
Member No.: 5,834



If you're worried about forensics, just use Explosive or Gel Ammo.

I am also not a gun expert but I have a hard time believing they could get rifling marks off of shattered fragments or a flatted blob of gel.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Diesel
post Mar 11 2004, 03:17 PM
Post #21


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 608
Joined: 9-July 02
From: California
Member No.: 2,955



But there's less explosive floating around, making that easier to trace. :\
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mcb
post Mar 11 2004, 03:32 PM
Post #22


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 153
Joined: 16-February 04
From: Ohio, USA
Member No.: 6,083



Ahh! A caseless smoothbore shotgun is what you need. Smoothbore so the projectiles are not uniquely marked and no spent shell to leave more ballistic evidence traceable to a particular weapon.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 11 2004, 03:35 PM
Post #23


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



QUOTE (Diesel)
But there's less explosive floating around, making that easier to trace.

BTW, how likely do people think it would be that by the 2060s most high explosives would be manufactured with trace elements? So that whenever a bomb goes off anywhere, they can quickly figure out where it came from, if it's from a commercial source.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kevyn668
post Mar 11 2004, 06:15 PM
Post #24


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,751
Joined: 8-August 03
From: Neighbor of the Beast
Member No.: 5,375



I thought using caseless ammo increased clip capacity and there was a price increase.

Is that from SR2??
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 11 2004, 06:19 PM
Post #25


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



Apparently. It does not happen with any canon SR3 weapon, for certain.

The only rules-wise differences between cased and caseless in 3rd Ed SR seemingly have to do with manufacturing ammunition.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 18th August 2019 - 10:19 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.