Dermal Sheath Obsolete Options

[hobgoblin]

Possibly, but it never got updated, and its in the errata section, even though its not really an errata document.

It is a errata between SR4 and SR4A, but it never got completed because CGL hit a financial bump and so had to prioritize getting new products out there over getting the free services up to speed. Yes, it sucks for us in the community as we do not have a fly on the office wall so we know what is coming. And as of late i think CGL have prioritized battletech and new IP over shadowrun. I would say that the loss of chutulhutech and eclipse phase may have hurt CGL the most as they where both rising stars in the market, and earning them money they could channel into the other games.

I also fear that with the new forum over at shadowrun4.com it is less likely that our discussions here will be seen. This in comparison to when we had AH, Adam and Synner (among others) all responding to various threads.

[Whipstitch]

Not by Critias's logic, the hand is the most important part.

I keep looking for the part where he said the hand was the most important part, and yet it's not there.

[klinktastic]

You can have the keenest eyesight, the most balanced stance in the world, the most accurate little match-grade .22 handgun, the steadiest arms, the best ammo, and everything else you can think of might be perfect -- but if your hands are shaking, or you jerk the trigger instead of squeeze it, or if you were to somehow try to hold the gun so that your ring finger or pinky was on the trigger, etc, etc, your accuracy is going to suffer. Hell, how many shooters have you trained who've shot consistently low and to the right because they had too much of their finger on the trigger, instead of just the ball of their fingertip?

To summarize, everything is perfect except your hands and you are utter fail at shooting fire arms. Does that highlight it enough for you Whip? And IMHO he's describing an untrained shooter with a quivering hand and ill placed fingers on the trigger. That would have nothing to do with agility (manual dexterity) and more to do with training.

[Zyerne]

See. This is why I spec partial cyberlimbs to match the meat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Grinder]

I think thats a good way to end it.

Please do so. All of you.

[Critias]

To summarize, everything is perfect except your hands and you are utter fail at shooting fire arms. Does that highlight it enough for you Whip? And IMHO he's describing an untrained shooter with a quivering hand and ill placed fingers on the trigger. That would have nothing to do with agility (manual dexterity) and more to do with training.

EDIT: I took some snark out of the opening of my post, even though I felt it was deserved, and I'll just say that I think you're reading a lot into my post that I never said. I said that accuracy will suffer if anything is done wrong, and that's just a basic rule of marksmanship. You're either operating at 100%, or you're not. I didn't say you'd be "utter fail," I said "accuracy will suffer." I also certainly never said the hand was the most important part. If you want to disagree with what I'm saying, that's fine. You certainly won't be the first. Just kindly disagree with what I'm saying, don't say things for me.

I used real-world shooting examples -- that, yes, are more related to training than anything else -- simply as methods of trying to talk about reality. You're the one that kept bringing up real-life shooting experience as the only qualification that let someone engage in this conversation, and since I don't know anyone with an Agility 3 cyberhand, I was trying to make analogies towards real-life situations that can cause accuracy to suffer, even if everything else is done right. They seemed to make sense to me as ways to point out that yes hands matter when you shoot, but you obviously seem to have read something else into them, or taken some sort of offense, or whatever.

In marksmanship, as in everything else, you're only operating at peak efficiency if everything's working right. Someone with proper grip technique who's trying to shoot on the run suffers some in accuracy. Someone with great stance and grip but poor eyesight isn't as accurate. Someone with keen eyes, proper stance, fantastic grip, but a bad gun isn't going to do as well. It takes every part operating just right for anything to work as well as it can -- that's a simple fact. You might not miss outright because of it, but you won't hit as often, or as fast, or as well.

So at what point would you say it's appropriate for a cyberhand to start applying some sort of penalty to someone with an otherwise high Agility, who's trying to fire a weapon? Take a totally awesome (and cliched) elven hitman type, with racial bonuses and cool augmentations and an Agility score of 9. Give that guy an Agility 3 hand and he's still totally kosher in your book, that's fine, we've established your opinion there. What about an Agility 2 cyberhand? Agility 1? A real-world prosthetic hand, with a hook he can manipulate a little bit? At what rate does that Agility 9 super-cool elf hitman have to start using anything other than his full Agility, when he's trying to fire a weapon?

How much does their ability to fine-manipulate an object have to go down, before you think it's appropriate for it to start affecting their combat-usefulness where the Agility attribute, specifically using that hand, is concerned? When you consider that the game has already established some sort of precedence for this sort of thing, given that you use a cyberlimb's attributes when you're leading an attack with that limb, or that you take a penalty even just for using your off-hand (to account for it being more awkward and less ideal for combat than your dominant hand)...where do you draw the line?

I've established that I think the Agility of the hand should at least be averaged in, as a way of "weakest link" affecting someone's ability to be awesome at some physical tasks, because I, personally, think that you need to be "firing on all cylinders," having everything working together properly, to achieve maximum efficiency. You disagree, and that's fine, I've given up on changing your mind -- just so we're clear there -- but I'm curious about where your threshold would be.

EDIT: Dammit. Just saw the last posts, including Grinder's. So, uhh, nevermind, I guess? Or PM me with your answer, or something? I dunno. I'm just genuinely curious about at what point you'd be okay with someone having to suffer a little bit for blatantly choosing to give themselves a limb that's so obviously inferior to their own natural abilities.