Full Defense, Does this suck... Options

[252]

Okay, I've been reading things over a lot because I'm GMing this time around. Making players die isn't so bad (can't believe my other GM.)

Anyways Full Defense

You take the attackers successes and compare them to just the defender's skill rolled.

Then you take the attackers successes and compare them to just the defender's dodge rolled.

Then you do a body test against the remaining successes.

How I read the successes of the defender part makes me wonder if he gets to combine the dodge and the skill together at the end. Because they keep the whole part separated.

To me full defense sucks. There are no modifiers that would seem to give him anything. Do you customarily give someone with the full defense a superior position adventage?

What is your idea of these rules.

[Shockwave_IIc]

The way i read it is that it allows you to guage more accuratly how many dice from your pool to use once you've seen the success.

[ShadowPhoenix]

exactly, since I would think the first roll you cancel any successes the attacker had with the defenders successes, then any remain successes from that test can be nullified by the defenders dodge that he decides to throw, which may then cancel the attack completely. so in a way I'd think that does combine the benefits of both. or maybe I'm misreading the question :P

[TheScamp]

Yes, successes from the skill test carry over to the Dodge test. Note how it says to keep track of the attacker's net successes at the end of the Skill roll, then says to use those net sucessess to compare against the Dodge roll.

Full defense has 2 distinct advanatages numbers wise. The first one is that you're not limited in the number of potential Combat Pool dice that you can use in the Dodge test; if you were to do a normal (counter)attack, you could only use as many dice as your melee skill. Secondly, you get to wait and see how many success you need to get and can make a more informed decision on how much of your Pool you use. The normal way, you need to guess how many you might need ahead of time.

[Cain]

As Scamp pointed out, Full Defense has some huge advantages, especially if you're not a melee combatant. If you have zero skill, you can still use combat pool dice to dodge; if your strength is low, forfeiting a counterattack is not a problem.

Picture this: my rigger, with Str 2, has Aikido 2 and Evasion. If he's attacked in melee, with that strength he's not going to be doing much damage. So instead, he goes full-defense and instigates evasion. He now gets to roll his skill of 2, plus 2 combat pool, against a base TN of 3. If he doesn't beat the guy with that, he then gets to make a second dodge test, using all needed combat pool, against a TN of 3. With that, he actually has a chance against stronger opponents.

[Herald of Verjig...]

Another detail about full defense:
When you are under monowhip attack, and use full defense, the attacker may hurt himself. If the dodge test of the full defense is neccessary and results in complete evasion, the "self injury" aspect of a monowhip comes into play.

[BitBasher]

how does he get a dodge at a TN of 3? dodge is always at a TN of 4, + penalties for multiple bullets, if bullets are whats being dodged. I dont see where the -1 on the dodge test comes from.

[toturi]

[252]

I guess I had another idea of that, I thought the melee skill didn't get the evasion advantage. Just the combat pool part....

Back to reading the book.


Thanks guys, that is a ton of help.

[Cain]

[DigitalMage]

[Shockwave_IIc]

Thats what i thought, but to be honest it doesn't make a great deal of difference in the final out come since, you'd get to roll those dice at the next stage anyway

[Austere Emancipa...]

Actually, it seems you can't, and the -1 TN modifier comes up in the Dodge test. Which makes it a lot more useful still, except for stupid & weak willed individuals with a very high skill.

[Fonitrus]

[Shockwave_IIc]

Fonitrus, Ermm i think you missed my point (granted i might not explained it to well)

The point i was making was, while on full defense do you not only get skill on the first roll as opposed to skill plus pool? But the reason it wouldn't make a great deal of difference, is because the pool in the first roll you'd get to use in the second, if you weren't alllowed to use it in the first roll.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Fonitrus]

the attack role when full defending DOES NOT get suplementary Combat Pool Dice.
This allows u to use range attack rules for dodge in melee to further drop successes of attacked an possibly avoid resisting...

the point is not THE POOL...the point is ALWAYS about the TN...

the TNs tell u if its time to Full Defend or let it all out guns blazing...

its not important that u cant use pool in the 1st attack roll...with full defence u get to do 3 rolls..
1 attack no pool
1 pool dodge
1 resistance

if u lower the successes enough in the first two tests to lets say 1 net success then he only hit u with a base M hit and its much easier to stage down..even with no combat pool (in case u used it all to dodge)...

so yea...as a GM i metagame something severe and as a player i enjoy the unknown but i always backcalculate my TNs before i make decisions...
alot of GM dont like ppl doing this reverse engineering because it slows down the game while the PC asks for TNs then he runs (pretends to) binomial calculations to find the necessary dice to roll for optimal results (hurry up its bloody getting late) and then rolls...(10 minutes later)...
but if u pre-calculate all situational TNs and mods and acomodate for GM factor TN modifiers u should always or at least 70% of the time know ur odds and make the correct decision on attacking or full defending...Just dont make it obvious u r calculating things in front of the GM...it pisses most GMs (especially me) off... sure run them in ur head or even make ur own PC cheat-quick-refrence-TN-table for various situations...just dont slow down the game... :)

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Fonitrus]

full defence has only one rule...
NO bloody Combat Pool dice on the 1st roll...i.e. Skill Roll

the Evasion bit only helps with TN reduction so its doesnot circumvent any full defence rules...

there are only 1 set of rules and they are clear

BBB page 123 FULL DEFENCE...NO COMBAT POOL on the initial roll...

the tradoff is u get to use range rules for dodge...

now which one of the versions of NO COMBAT POOL in 1st roll didn't u understand?

hehe just to make sure people were clear on the rules :)

had to provide a page refrence :)

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Shockwave_IIc]

That was my point! You don't get to use CP in the first roll. Unlike in cains example where he does, hence why i said

[Fonitrus]

actual confusion..no...

Player 'confusion' ..u can bet ur ass...
watch ur players rolls next time...see how many of them conveniently forget about that rule...also try to have few sets of coloured dice so like in my game that i used to run the mage always had all white dice and was rolling like 10+ dice on each roll (both cast and drains) and always picked up the dice before anyone can count them and then just report successes...

im kinda skeptical to this as in my game it was heavily abused...u find a rule they have abused it..u find a glitch they have made it a hole...u find a hole and it broke the campaign...well almost...quick work of Divine Bowine Intervention made sure people remembered the Cowboy from hell :) (long story..unless ppl want me to tell it i wont bother cluttering the thread)

so yea...dont let Players be 'confused' if u have (and most games have) some melee specialists...make them aware of the rule in case they wany to use it..also use it on ur NPCs they survive longer...use the rules of the game to piss off ur PCs to a point they learn the game is not about gun-ho-macho-crap its about playing smart to survive in the game of TNs and their modifiers...

its a D6 world afterall... :)

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Cain]

I admit I messed up; but the point is moot. Since you can roll unlimited combat pool dice on the dodge, as opposed to only skill level, Full Defense is great for those without melee combat skills. For those with low skills, Evasion is even better.