When should Etiquette come into play? Options

[FenrisWolf]

Fairly new GM here and I'm not sure when to have my players use their Etiquette skill. In what situations do you use this skill in actual play?

[icedrake]

Fairly new GM here and I'm not sure when to have my players use their Etiquette skill. In what situations do you use this skill in actual play?

When I gm other games beyond shadowrun, when questions have cultural questions over social interactions, Etiquette might be a good use for that, so that they know how to avoid looking foolish when talking to people. If they're talking to a Johnson, and are debating on how to phrase something, you can do a 'that's kinda dumb' roll so that the player doesn't mistakenly offend the guy.

When they make a social gaff and they understand that they have, you can use it to cover that particular action up with an Etiquette roll, only those that succeed at some social based perception roll would notice it. Like using the wrong fork for the salad course in a high high end dinner party.

Edit: Another thing that they could use it for, would be to get an edge in negotiations. Say some fixer or black marketeer has a rather fond taste for some particular indulgence, a drunk or drink, they could offer that up as a gift to the person they're talking to.

I often envision this skill as the 'give your players more information about the world' skill.

This post has been edited by icedrake: Nov 15 2010, 09:37 PM

[Doc Chase]

I would do it whenever they're meeting someone with some sort of power. Gang leader or a pack, a Johnson, an oyabun of the Yakuza - anywhere where a culture clash could start a fight. Runners need to know how to act to get by the gangs, to not piss off the Yaks, or to put the Johnson at ease so he relaxes those purse strings.

'course, a lot of this can be alleviated through the transfer of nuyen, but I tend to be stingy.

[klinktastic]

Etiquette, for me, is general awareness of how to act, respond, and behave given the situation you are in.

Example - In a matrix meet (in RL) I might type stuff like "LOL" or "IMHO". But I'm not going to say that in a real conversation in person with someone.

Example - At work, in a corporate environment, I will be very proper, saying please and thank you all the time. I wouldn't say "Shit" or "Damn" (often, only when I fail an etiquette roll). Obviously quite different than chilling with friends.

How it should be impletemented, I'd run it like this. You start a social encounter. Everyone rolls and tells you their results. Those that succeed, you tell them how they should be acting. The one's that fail, should behalf opposite of what you say, maybe not as bad if they didn't fail by much or just failed to get a success. After a certain amount of the social encounter occurs (assuming its a long one) maybe get teh guys who failed a chance to roll again, since they've seen more about the situation and might have learned from their social gaffes.

[Neraph]

Etiquette has always seemed to me to be a "I don't feel like RP-ing" skill, similar to some of the Qualities found in Runner's Companion.

[Jizmack]

Keep in mind that Shadowrunners live and work in a world of crime, corruption, violence, and covert power mongering. People assume you are an informant, a mole, a nobody, a liability, a scam-artist, a potential enemy, etc. until you prove otherwise… and that means first impressions are critical and can be outright dangerous. Etiquette is mostly used in first encounters and during “business” conversations. By coming across as a person that knows and fits well in the shadowy world, the encounter typically goes down well.
I have used Etiquette to negate Glitches when Social Skills are being used, as well as allowing the player to correct “wrong” role-playing.
In addition, we have used the following house rule:
Roll Etiquette Dice (do not add Charisma).
Add the number of Hits as extra dice to your Social Skill dice pool.

[Redcrow]

I tend to use Etiquette as both a Social Skill and a Knowledge Skill. In my game it covers things like knowing the difference between proper forms of address like "-san" and "-sama" and the appropriate time to use them without needing to know formal Japanese. Etiquette (Military) might include knowledge of what out-ranks what and the proper forms of address as well as a myriad of other things. It could also cover a bit of knowledge about Military Bureaucracy regarding where to go and who (in general not specifically) to talk to in order to get what you need.

I probably use Etiquette as a Knowledge Skill more often than I do a Social Skill and only use it as the latter whenever another Social Skill doesn't fit the circumstance or is unavailable.

[klinktastic]

You will see there are 2 different version of the use of the skill. It is obviously not a knowledge skill (in this case), but an active skill. Anyway, I recommend my version for more RP. Most of the others are recommending a version for less RP.

The More RP Version: You roll prior to the social encounter, the results determine how your character should act. Lots of successes means that you give guidance on what would be appropriate. Maybe allowing him to ask a question per success about what is ok to do or what is not ok to do. A failure should mean the PC should RP to avoid what you said to those who succeeded.

The Less RP Version: Roll and see what the outcome is. Lots of success means they like you. Failure means you get off on the wrong foot, potentially starting a fight. Otherwise, if you are entering a situation where you would have attempted to negotiate, you might be at some penalties.

The answer is that you should ask your group (or just know) their play style. If they like the action, and don't like the social encounters, then do the less RP one. But if your group likes to speak in character, then the More RP version is probably better.

[Glyph]

Etiquette basically is a measure of a character's ability to fit in. I would not roll it and then tell players how they have to act, though. Instead, they should say what they are trying to do, and the etiquette roll should determine how well they pull it off. A lot of situational modifiers can apply to etiquette - wearing Ancient colors when you are at a street party with a lot of the Spikes in attendance, etc. Sometimes knowledge skills can be used to determine if a character knows something specific that can help the general etiquette roll. The face might charm the Oyabun well enough purely by rolling etiquette, but a successful skill check on his Tea Ceremony knowledge skill might give him a bonus to that dice roll.

[Zyerne]

One of the first scenes I'll be running when my group starts playing on Thurs is an Ettiquette test for all the players as a way of helping the Johnson determining if they are suitable for the task he has for them.

The 1 Charisma, no social skills Mage may have a problem.

At the same time, I'll be showcasing Ettiqutte failure, one of the NPCs (who has superthyroid and thus major munchies) will be busy chewing on a soyburger as the meet goes down.

[toturi]

Etiquette has always seemed to me to be a "I don't feel like RP-ing" skill, similar to some of the Qualities found in Runner's Companion.

Etiquette has always seem to me like a way to curb players from abusing their "roleplaying" skill when their characters are not good at it.

I ask my players to roll before the encounter. Then they get to RP their rolls. Good RPing, for either good or bad rolls, will get RP karma. Bad RPing, RPing to avoid consequences of their lousy roll or a simple lack of RPing, won't get RP karma.

[klinktastic]

Etiquette has always seem to me like a way to curb players from abusing their "roleplaying" skill when their characters are not good at it.

I ask my players to roll before the encounter. Then they get to RP their rolls. Good RPing, for either good or bad rolls, will get RP karma. Bad RPing, RPing to avoid consequences of their lousy roll or a simple lack of RPing, won't get RP karma.

Well said and well illustrated.

[Zyerne]

As long as you have moderately cooperative players.

I once had a situation where the characters couldn't get a guy to talk. One of the players came up with the idea of shoving wood splinters or something similar under his fingernails and wouldn't accept that this out to bypass any dice rolling and automatically get him the information he wanted.

I can't remember if I was the GM at the time or another one of the group was. I do remember that was a great deal of reluctance to just let this guy torture his way through the scenario.

[klinktastic]

Well, you can let them skip the RP conversation, but they don't gain/lose karma awards. Additionally, if they kill the guy, word gets out they were the last to talk to him. If they leave him alive, the get a nasty rep, and get some negative street credit.

[Khadajico]

One of my players is trying a more face based character but is not good at the whole thinking of the right thing to say. So I tend to allow an etiquette roll during the conversation to see how the meet is going in general with modifiers based on what they are trying to do / say.

I have another player that is very good at the whole talking bit, but he has a low etiquette so I will make him roll to see if he manages to screw up even though he has said all the right things.

I am in favor of RP, but not if the skills of the player totally override the skills of the character.

[klinktastic]

One of my players is trying a more face based character but is not good at the whole thinking of the right thing to say. So I tend to allow an etiquette roll during the conversation to see how the meet is going in general with modifiers based on what they are trying to do / say.

I have another player that is very good at the whole talking bit, but he has a low etiquette so I will make him roll to see if he manages to screw up even though he has said all the right things.

I am in favor of RP, but not if the skills of the player totally override the skills of the character.

Exactly, which is why you pre-roll the etiquette, and then tell them how to RP (good or bad) based on the roll. The side benefit is that you're players should bet getting better and better at roleplaying through this method.

[Khadajico]

Exactly, which is why you pre-roll the etiquette, and then tell them how to RP (good or bad) based on the roll. The side benefit is that you're players should bet getting better and better at roleplaying through this method.

<head desk interaction> I hadn't thought of pre-rolling the etiquette, I was getting them to roll during the conversation. But doing it first and telling them how to RP it makes more sense ... I will try that next session

[FenrisWolf]

Etiquette has always seem to me like a way to curb players from abusing their "roleplaying" skill when their characters are not good at it.

I ask my players to roll before the encounter. Then they get to RP their rolls. Good RPing, for either good or bad rolls, will get RP karma. Bad RPing, RPing to avoid consequences of their lousy roll or a simple lack of RPing, won't get RP karma.

I really like this idea and I think I'll try to adopt this in some fashion. This will certainly make things interesting for the players that skimped on Etiquette during character generation.

[Makki]

<head desk interaction> I hadn't thought of pre-rolling the etiquette, I was getting them to roll during the conversation. But doing it first and telling them how to RP it makes more sense ... I will try that next session

isn't that, how every single dice roll in any rpg is intended?

[Khadajico]

isn't that, how every single dice roll in any rpg is intended?

Thinking about it you are right.

I currently roll etiquette after the conversation with modifiers based on the subjects, or sometimes just don't roll. But I think I will have to start rolling before.

[klinktastic]

Social active skills are a bit funky compared to other skills. Something like firearms, is an easy results. You roll, you see the result. Inflitration is similar, you roll and you get a result. It's either enough or not.

Social skills should enhance the RP of the situation. I like my etiquette pre-rolled, and then role play out the result. However, for negotiations, I like to actually role play the negotiations then roll to see how the NPC reacted to it. If the role play of the negotiations by the PC was good, I might add bonus dice or lower the threshold number. If it was bad, I might enact a penalty or increase the threshold. Similarly, I tend to handle Con, Leadership, and Interrogation the same way.

[FenrisWolf]

isn't that, how every single dice roll in any rpg is intended?

Not exactly in my game. I tend to have the players roleplay out a social situation and then roll the appropriate skill to see how well they fared with a dice pool modifier based upon their roleplaying. I'm not saying that is how it is "intended" but that is how I do it. The better they roleplay the scene, the better the dice pool modifier within reason.

[klinktastic]

Not exactly in my game. I tend to have the players roleplay out a social situation and then roll the appropriate skill to see how well they fared with a dice pool modifier based upon their roleplaying. I'm not saying that is how it is "intended" but that is how I do it. The better they roleplay the scene, the better the dice pool modifier within reason.

So you're running with a similar style as I do. I would keep all other social skills, as mentioned, as "after RP" rolls, but use etiquette as a "before RP" roll to set the stage for the ensueing social encounter. That's how I do it. I think it works out quite well. It helps get your PCs in-character and usually ends up being fun and usually pretty funny. After a while, anyone who doesn't want to play a social retard usually starts buying skills in social skills. The most under appreciated skill group in the game. For 10 BPs, not defaulting on social skill rolls is very nice.

[Kagetenshi]

Not exactly in my game. I tend to have the players roleplay out a social situation and then roll the appropriate skill to see how well they fared with a dice pool modifier based upon their roleplaying. I'm not saying that is how it is "intended" but that is how I do it. The better they roleplay the scene, the better the dice pool modifier within reason.

That's backwards, devaluing the skill—the equivalent situation is to let the player go out back to a shooting range and then give modifiers based on how well they shot. The right way to do it is to roll and then roleplay the result (or alternately be honest about whose social skills are being tested and not make players buy them to begin with).

~J

[klinktastic]

That's backwards, devaluing the skill—the equivalent situation is to let the player go out back to a shooting range and then give modifiers based on how well they shot. The right way to do it is to roll and then roleplay the result (or alternately be honest about whose social skills are being tested and not make players buy them to begin with).

~J

I would agree with this statement only for etiquette. But how are you supposed to RP a negotiations roll pre-RP? Say DP 8, roll 2 successes. So the GM says you did well, but not great, so give him an above average request and it will be ok. Something around 2k more maybe. Then the PC would respond, "Well Mr. Johnson, don't you think you could cover our expenses, maybe cap it at 2k nuyen?" Say DP 4, no successes, DM would say, eh, you ask for some stuff, but he's going to say no regardless of how reasonable it is. Then the PC say, out of character to the GM, "Eh, let's just move on since it won't matter anyway."

In a post-RP rolling situation, you get the best of both the RP and then the impact is determined by the rolls. That way, players are rewarded for good ideas, dice pools still matter (even if you get a bonus dice or two), and the RP matters because the subsequent roll determines how receptive the NPC is to the idea. That way, the PC can RP however they want, if its good, not outrageous or ridiculous, then they can get some bonuses. It's realistic as well, because even if you're bad at negotiating, if you say something that makes sense, you should get a bonus.