How to implement Horros in SR, Splitting off from the "cheap ways to defeat the Horrors" thre Options

[Stormdrake]

I relies some SR players do not like the idea of Horrors. No biggie as their inclusion is pretty much up to the individual story teller and his group. For those of us who do want them included how would you implement their existence and powers? Does anyone even have a list of the Horrors and their supposed affinities from ED? I know that some just required a repeat of their name to allow them to take people over or that others existed as music. I also know that many existed in parts, having physical and astral bodies that could spawn replacements if one side or the other was destroyed.

One thing that was mentioned on the other thread was that Horror Marks allowed the Horrors to use those bearing their marks to cast ritual spells through without penalties or worry about wards. That they also allowed the Horrors to take over those so marked and that they could then mark others. For SR this is truly a major power as the Horrors can manipulate, spy and attack without impediment.

[Inncubi]

There are two ways to do this:

The Fluffy way and the Crunchy way.

Fluffy-wise: Horrors are much easier to implement because you don't have to develop new rules for them. In this way I picture -just one way of doing it- lots of mooks serving in cults, Aztechnology serving as a facade and, just to make things even worse, make MCT or, better, the Draco foundation the next target for ineternal take over by them.

The players will probably never meet a full-fledged horror head-on, Sheddim sure, Wraiths sure, but not one of the named Horrors. They come in contact of them through magical artifacts, metaplanar quests, secret research facilities, etc.

The horrors become an impending doom /only/ the players are aware of in the world. Then make them feel slightly insane, even though they are certain of the unavoidable apocalypse. If anything horror cosntructs become very interesting here, because you can replicate para critters from the books and use them as antagonists foreshadowing what is yet to come. Mix in some descriptive things, (Player: "I send the bio sample form that weird, huge spider with a human face we killed last week in that AZT facility, that our mage swears is not a spirit to the Street Doc." GM: "A week later he says that the sample has no DNA whatsoever". Player: "What?!") or something like that, to make them freak out even more.

In this way, reading Earthdawn fluff and web pgaes, plus a couple of Lovecraft stories, is more than enough to set up the mood and even make tons of adventures, without tampering with new systems and statting new spirits.

Crunchy-wise: Horrors are a bitch. They are hard to stat using SR4 rules, because, you need to invent and customize each one. Using the RC free spirit rules can help, and using custom spells to replicate their powers, avoiding all drain, for example and negating every rule based assumption about magic there is in SR4, because they /are/ unique. They will become either Harlequin-like characters or the game will degenerate into an arms race ("I lazzorz' that Wormskull again!" ZZZZAAAPPP!).

Not that this gets in the way of a good story, or a fun time, but in my book its too time consuming for the effort to be worthwhile, I'd much rather spend all the time I'd use statting new spirits coherently... doing basically anything else.

[nezumi]

Pick up the Horrors book. It's well worth the read.

I've done a run around a named Horror. Everything had to be statted by hand. I gave particular powers and such. As a general rule of thumb, the Horrors are not bound by any Shadowrun rules, so it can cast spells without LOS, with incredible powers, etc.

The run I wrote up was basically Rats in the Walls. With the drop of the magic level, it got several humans to build a magical bubble for it, to protect it. But the builders made it such that the bubble is tied to one location only, so the horror was trapped. Over the millenia, the geology changed, and gradually it sank under ground, but the Horror's powers extended beyond, so it could use its powers to help and lure humans wandering on the ground overhead. As it was basically a power site, it became an important cultural site for a tribe of horror-touched Indians, later for pioneers and so on.

With the Sixth Age, it's finally read to come out. So it assembles the corpse of one of its worshippers, gives it life, and sends it out with a purse full of ancient gold to pay the runners to break the barriers built around its bubble, under the guise of babysitting a smuggler's nest. Once the runners arrive, it begins playing tricks on them, to try and get them to discover, then open the doors, thereby breaking the wards. Of course, the runners comply. If we're lucky, it comes to a fun showdown. If not, the horror sneaks away to wreak havoc.

My favorite scene was when three PCs were under illusion spells. Adam looked like a ghoul to Bob, Bob looked like a ghoul to everyone else, and as the party was dealing with Bob, Charlie comes around the bend looking like a slime monster. VERY nearly had a TPK, except one character carried a narcojet gun.

[TeOdio]

I personally like the indirect approach. Meta humans are still the beings with most of the power in the Shadowrun Universe, and are capable of the most heinous of actions against their own without much prodding. The things that make lower powered horrors in Earthdawn a threat is that they are the embodiment of our basest instincts given form without bounds. They destroy, consume, and lay waste to everything, including each other. I never felt that they had a good enough "feel" for Shadowrun in my game, and to be honest, the insect spirits and shedim sufficiently fill that role for me. The influence of the horrors in Shadowrun seem to be best introduced through agents that serve their eventual return. For these people, they only know of them through myths and legends, the classic Devil Worshiper. They do this for a variety of reasons. Some do it because they are convinced it will bring them personal power. Some do it because of a rebellious nature that drives them to the fringe. For some, it may even be a religion, perverted through thousands of years since the last scourge (Lovecraftian cults and the like). A game master could easily introduce the concept through organizations that exist in SR already, such as Winternight, Alamos 20K, or corrupted regimes that put profit or power so far ahead of metahuman dignity that they seem to cause misery for the sake of causing misery (like Pentex from the old Werewolf game.) The subtle taint of a powerful horror may already be enough to cause quite a bit of harm yet still not arouse cries of HORRORS amongst those that may know of their existence. And to some of the points Inncubi makes, I agree. Throwing "monsters" like wormskulls at a group of runners is no more frightening than a cyberzombie. If years of experience has taught me anything, they will still shoot the crap out of it all the same. However, a group of 10 year olds attempting to hack them up children of the corn style while their crazy corrupted Corporate Arcology instructor gleefully cackles on in madness... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[jaellot]

Pick up the Horrors book. It's well worth the read.

Indeed. Also, for something at least in SR, though dated, is the Harlequin's Back module. It has references to The Enemy, which basically is the Horrors. It even has stats for some of the Enemy, albeit those of a grunt/mook nature.

I wouldn't see a problem, if you are willing, to homebrewing up the powers. It's alot of work, obviously, but if it's how you want to roll, have fun. Get mean. Get nasty. The Horrors are. Don't go whole hog, though, as there are a lot of them out there. Pick one or two.

My personal favorite was the one that basically didn't make you do anything. It just gave you awesome bonuses when you wanted them. Most of the time. Of course once you were hooked, the Horror had you.

[Stormdrake]

I am leaning towards the first method but have used the second by focusing on the Horror that could manipulate technology. No, it has not made its way to earth but it is operating through tainted (marked) awakened metahumans who produce marvelous cybertechnology and drones for consumers that integrate magic and technology. Something that has been the holy grail of magical research sense the start of the sixth world. Of course the drones are really under the control of the Horror and the cybertech pretty much acts as an unidentified Horror Mark. The initial attempt by the Horror to take over a heightened magical area was defeated but the blame fell on the corporation producing the tech rather than the tech itself. So the tech is still out there with its link to the Horror but the company producing it was destroyed.

[Kagetenshi]

A big question is "which Horrors?" Lesser Horrors and Horror Constructs, especially the predominantly physical ones like Baggi or Gnashers, are basically just an exercise in stat assignment—they're a bit tricky, on account of their attributes tend to blow out the top range of the SR spectrum (IIRC I ended up statting Qural'lotectica in SR3 with all stats in the high teens to low twenties), but they generally don't involve much creation of fundamentally new rules. Once you get into things like the ability to Horror Mark or other distinctly ED capabilities, you're into creating new rules wholesale.

~J

[Kot]

@Kagetenshi: Once you get into abilities like those of a Kreescra, or Mind Slug, all bets are off. There's a very thin line there, and plotting Horrors are always a lot more tricky than those, who just like to crush, kill and destroy.

[sabs]

I would not bother 'Stating' Artificer

Artificer is so freaky that any attempt to stat him would just pale in comparison to what he can really do.

Imagine a robotics lab. Filled with drones, robotic tools, biodrones, cyberzombies. All of which are actually 'part' of Artificer. The walls, the elevators are actually all physical manifestations of him. But you can't damage him that way. Astrally if a Mage goes astral in said lab.. start making him take 4-6P damage every round he's astral, just for being astral. If he's astrally perceiving, cool checks or risk going insane/being horror marked, oh and take 3P damage every round.

[Kot]

I would not bother 'Stating' Artificer

Artificer is so freaky that any attempt to stat him would just pale in comparison to what he can really do.

Imagine a robotics lab. Filled with drones, robotic tools, biodrones, cyberzombies. All of which are actually 'part' of Artificer. The walls, the elevators are actually all physical manifestations of him. But you can't damage him that way. Astrally if a Mage goes astral in said lab.. start making him take 4-6P damage every round he's astral, just for being astral. If he's astrally perceiving, cool checks or risk going insane/being horror marked, oh and take 3P damage every round.

Erm. Artificer is a Horror/Great Form Elemental hybrid. And as much scary as he is, he's not really a plotting one. He just makes classic gygaxian dungeon crawls to feed from the pain and agony. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Kagetenshi]

I'd also recommend not statting him, but more because as Kot notes unless the party decides that they really really really want to hunt him down personally the important things to stat will be his traps.

~J

[Stormdrake]

That is the guy, err Horror. Could not remember his name. He is the one I had in mind though for creating tainted cyberware and other tech. Have been working from the angle that anyone using said tech comes under the influence of the Horror and slowly goes mad in a "Dexter" kinda way.

[Kagetenshi]

Kauthrunne is more likely there, Artificer would probably just build a fancier death-trap.

~J

[Kot]

Erm, who? Don't remember that one from Horrors.

[jaellot]

That is the guy, err Horror. Could not remember his name. He is the one I had in mind though for creating tainted cyberware and other tech. Have been working from the angle that anyone using said tech comes under the influence of the Horror and slowly goes mad in a "Dexter" kinda way.

This does sound like a bucket of awesome. There was another one, Gift Bringer? Something like that, who did something with items, too. Don't know if it was a means of tracking you down to ruin your day, or if the items themselves were tainted to ruin said day.

[Kagetenshi]

Erm, who? Don't remember that one from Horrors.

That's because she isn't there. She got added in Scourge Undending; broadly similar to Tempter, but less personal, likes to find Adepts and give them weapons and armor (along with a Mark). She's the only one I can think of offhand who hands out tainted stuff and doesn't focus on one victim at a time.

This does sound like a bucket of awesome. There was another one, Gift Bringer? Something like that, who did something with items, too. Don't know if it was a means of tracking you down to ruin your day, or if the items themselves were tainted to ruin said day.

Neither, really—the items were mostly trinkets. What ruined people's days was his ability to come up with exactly what you want (within certain size and weight restrictions), then sell it to someone else. Once he's done this with enough people he starts using his powers to amplify feelings of avarice or jealousy, and the locals take care of the rest themselves. As far as I can tell the items themselves aren't Horror-tainted at all.

~J

[Cheops]

Hmmm...off the top of my head:

Horror Mark: Magic + Spellcasting versus Willpower (+Counterspelling), gives the Horror LoS to everyone you can see when within 10 miles of you, LoS to you when within 1000 miles, and allows communication out to 5000 miles

Thought Worm: Magic + Spellcasting versus Willpower (+Counterspelling), add a number of dice to the Horror's dice pool equal to the Force of its Horror Mark, allows the Horror to spend an Edge to give you a suggestion, if you act on it you may roll the dice granted by the spent Edge, if you resist you take Drain Damage equal to the Force of the Thought Worm power (resisted by your tradition's drain stats or by willpower only if mundane), each time you resist the drain damage goes up by 1 and the spent Edge is added to the pool (so if you comply on the 4th order you get 4 edge to spend on the test)

Karma Drain: allows the Horror to drain 1 edge per day from each of it's Horror marked victims

[Kot]

This does sound like a bucket of awesome. There was another one, Gift Bringer? Something like that, who did something with items, too. Don't know if it was a means of tracking you down to ruin your day, or if the items themselves were tainted to ruin said day.

Oh, he was just a wicked Satan Claus too. Not one of the 'good' ones. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

That's because she isn't there. She got added in Scourge Undending; broadly similar to Tempter, but less personal, likes to find Adepts and give them weapons and armor (along with a Mark). She's the only one I can think of offhand who hands out tainted stuff and doesn't focus on one victim at a time.

Geez, not that load'o'drek 2nd edition storyline. They crossed the lina after Prelude to War...

Horror Mark: Magic + Spellcasting versus Willpower (+Counterspelling), gives the Horror LoS to everyone you can see when within 10 miles of you, LoS to you when within 1000 miles, and allows communication out to 5000 miles

Wrong - they'd be nigh-unstoppable. Look up again. No damaging abilities beyond 10 miles.

Thought Worm: Magic + Spellcasting versus Willpower (+Counterspelling), add a number of dice to the Horror's dice pool equal to the Force of its Horror Mark, allows the Horror to spend an Edge to give you a suggestion, if you act on it you may roll the dice granted by the spent Edge, if you resist you take Drain Damage equal to the Force of the Thought Worm power (resisted by your tradition's drain stats or by willpower only if mundane), each time you resist the drain damage goes up by 1 and the spent Edge is added to the pool (so if you comply on the 4th order you get 4 edge to spend on the test)

I'd go for 'use Horror's Egde and get Marked if you do what he suggests'. The drain part is okay.

Karma Drain: allows the Horror to drain 1 edge per day from each of it's Horror marked victims

Erm - Edge. ED Karma is like SR Edge, more-or-less.
SR Karma ~= ED Legend Points.

[Kagetenshi]

Geez, not that load'o'drek 2nd edition storyline. They crossed the lina after Prelude to War...

I admit I don't know much about it, but yeah, Scourge Unending is obviously of lower quality. That said, it still does contain the only Horror that I've yet read about who goes around making tainted gear and handing it out—wait! Hey, I forgot Nemesis. Nemesis hands out corrupted goodies and isn't single-target. There's also no need for creative interpretation, because unlike Cauthrunne who only gives out weapons and armor Nemesis just usually gives weapons, and an implanted gift is highly likely to stay in the receiver's possession, so it even makes sense to branch into corrupted 'ware.

(One thing I ponder sometimes is whether low Essence makes one less susceptible to Horrors or more.)

~J

[jaellot]

(One thing I ponder sometimes is whether low Essence makes one less susceptible to Horrors or more.)

~J

That's an interesting idea. If we are wanting to bring in the ED idea of Pattern and what not, one has to wonder about the effects of ware on that as well.

I could see arguments for both, though on the Horror Mark. On one hand, as there is already "damage" of sorts to one's Essence then the rest would be less like to fend off a Mark. On the other hand, as there is less of one's true self, or whatever, then it's harder for the Horror to target it, yeah?

This would also bring in the concept of either applying a modifier to the Horror's Marking pool of the target's Essence, either positive or negative depending on which way you ran with it.

[Gerzel]

I would not bother 'Stating' Artificer

Artificer is so freaky that any attempt to stat him would just pale in comparison to what he can really do.

Imagine a robotics lab. Filled with drones, robotic tools, biodrones, cyberzombies. All of which are actually 'part' of Artificer. The walls, the elevators are actually all physical manifestations of him. But you can't damage him that way. Astrally if a Mage goes astral in said lab.. start making him take 4-6P damage every round he's astral, just for being astral. If he's astrally perceiving, cool checks or risk going insane/being horror marked, oh and take 3P damage every round.

Or better yet, as the GM take the character sheet, write down some new bit of cyberware at 0 essence cost and hand it back to player with smile. You're character feels ...fine... and saw ...nothing unusual...

That or I'd say watch the Cube movies for inspiration as to what the astral would be like inside Artificer. "I like the blue room."

[Gerzel]

That's an interesting idea. If we are wanting to bring in the ED idea of Pattern and what not, one has to wonder about the effects of ware on that as well.

I could see arguments for both, though on the Horror Mark. On one hand, as there is already "damage" of sorts to one's Essence then the rest would be less like to fend off a Mark. On the other hand, as there is less of one's true self, or whatever, then it's harder for the Horror to target it, yeah?

This would also bring in the concept of either applying a modifier to the Horror's Marking pool of the target's Essence, either positive or negative depending on which way you ran with it.

I actually has an idea about it.

Less essence makes a character easier to take over by the horrors but less, well for lack of a better word, appetizing. Higher essence makes it harder but more worth it, Magic use much more so. Thus burnout mages are particular delicacies to the horrors. They might even cultivate low-essence magic user, helping them regain and use powers.

My idea was to do a champaign around this tracking essence cost, from cyber as a single stat rather than subtracted from essence, and Magic as a separate stat for which having more spells and abilities increased the stat. Thus magic and cyber would not be mutually exclusive per-se they would just be dangerous.

[Tiralee]

IMHO -
The Horrors aren't here, exactly, or even close. But the aura (?) of them, like a shadow, could be felt. Just sort of hint to your players that the world's seeming a lot more off than you remember it, that the sun's not as warm, the food tasteless, the air thin, even when you're choking in down-town.

Nameless dread is a lot better if it's hinted at, if some guy they're guarding cuts his own throat while the players watch, his observed children die without a mark on them and their mother disappears from the next room mid-tirade leaving nothing but half a foot in her shoe...

Or, being a little more creative, if the program they're running glitches into turtle and the decker sees what could only be a "crack" in the grid, from which something grey and formless drifts and spreads over the networks...

...you know, good old creepy horror rather than "I shoot the tentacles with the minigun"

Have fun now.

Tir

[Gerzel]

The way I see the Horrors is as farmers. There are many worlds like the world of SR. They move from world to world harvesting fear leaving just enough seeds behind for the next crop to grow. Also like any farmer they watch over their crops; thus why the dragons/immortals don't talk about them.

That may also be why the dragons/immortals don't try to make the world a more peaceful place. Toughen people up for the coming Horrors. If they do it directly and openly the Horrors might show up sooner and decide that the whole field needs to be cleansed and rid of the infestation.

[Kot]

That's an interesting idea. If we are wanting to bring in the ED idea of Pattern and what not, one has to wonder about the effects of ware on that as well.

Well, Magic follows rules, and those say, that the ones that have essence-lowering body alterations are more difficult to target with magic. So probably yes, Horrors will have some problems with using their powers on cybered/biowared targets.
Essence is pretty much the same as Pattern - for example, extensive use of Blood Magic (not the azzie kind - that's Death Magic in ED) weakened one's Patttern, to the point of death, where the character did one of few interesting bye-bye effects, like imploding, melting, disintegrating, and such. I always thought that's flashy for a reason - to show what can happen. It could be a simple 'death by depatterning, sould dissolved, body dying'. But that's not illustrating enough for most players. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I actually has an idea about it.

Less essence makes a character easier to take over by the horrors but less, well for lack of a better word, appetizing. Higher essence makes it harder but more worth it, Magic use much more so. Thus burnout mages are particular delicacies to the horrors. They might even cultivate low-essence magic user, helping them regain and use powers.

Good one. Logical, and fun-inducing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)