Wait...Shadowrunners cleaning up the streets?!?, Ok, so my gritty campaign hit a soft spot in my group Options

[Kyrel]

After a few runs my players started feeling a bit depressed about things, they did get paid they did kill people, things weren't looking so bad, etc. etc. NOW however, one of my gamers is going through a very religious time in his life and has decided to turn that on the game, but, in a good way really, he's deciding that his ex-criminal Shadowrunner who likes to blow things up is going to start cleaning up the streets. So far I've been playing this one by ear but they're getting more and more efficient at blowing the shxt out of gangers and mafioso's. We even roleplayed the hell out of some Lone Star under the table action, basically making the team bail bondsmen and "walking tall" types. The thing is, I'm having trouble coming up with stuff to throw at them, because they just like to move forward, coming to the rescue of prostitutes and drug addicts, beating down drug dealers, they even negotiated a 15 minute lone star blackout in downtown seattle so they could bomb the shxt out of a mafia drug den, heavily guarded (I rolled like crap that night, they basically marched right over the top of the mafia soldati.) Now as I've said I'm a bit clueless, any ideas what I can throw at them? so far they've steered pretty clear of the Triad and Yakuza, maybe this is a good time to introduce a mafia prime runner?

Realistically, I think most options have been covered already at this point. As for me, I'd say start off by asking your players what type of game they are looking for, and let that be the determining factor for what you should throw at them next.

If they want "realism", throw the Mob at them. Gods know they sound like they've stepped on their toes enough to warrant a serious response from that side. Others have given you plenty of examples of what you might throw at your players in this case.

If they want "heroism", throw some more crime stuff at them, which they can deal with. Drug rings, prostitution ring, large drug shipment coming in, human trafficking, extortion, money laundering, protection racket, etc. and keep the retaliation from the Mob and others low or non-existing.

On a personal level, I'm most in favour of the "realistic" approach that I feel stays true to the setting. Your runners have elected to bother the Mafia, an organisation with far more money, connections, manpower, people, and guns than they can even begin to match, and they'll have to live with the consequences of those actions. Even if they are equipped with the most state-of-the-art 'ware and equipment in the game, they can not be in all places at once, and quantity is a quality on it's own, as they say. As they (roughly) write in a sourcebook for White Wolf's Old World of Darkness Vampire setting, "you really don't know what firepower means, before you've seen the mafia on a bad hairday...". If your players characters are smart, they'll relocate to a different city, which will open up new options for your campaign (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) If they want to play things out to the inevitable conclusion, have them go down fighting in a blaze of glory, fighting the Mafia, and make a epic, memorable story out of the coming end of the campaign. And once you are done, start a new campaign.

Good luck and have fun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

/Kyrel

[Angelone]

That mafia soldati has a family too, people not necessarily knowing what he did for a living. How do you handle an enraged teenager seeking to kill the bad guys who took away his dad and made mommy sink into depression ?

Oh, that's easy. How does the enraged teenager handle the other enraged teenagers seeking to take revenge on the mafia soldatos' family who broke up their families?

I can see it now.

Mafia Teen: My name is Guido Sarducci you killed my father prepare to die!
Bunch of other teens appear from the shadows.
Other teens: Your father killed our fathers prepare to die!
Mafia Teen: Umm...
Other teens beat mafia teen and leave him hanging wedgie like from a street lamp.
Shadowrunner_01: Well that's something you don't see everyday.
Shadowrunner_02: I'm kinda hungry wanna go grab some NERPS from the Stuff Shack?
Shadowrunner_01: Hell yeah!
Mafia Teen: Why won't anyone help me?
Mafia Teen gets eaten by Drop Bears as the shadowrunners wander off into the night.

I hate the whole revenge from friends/family members idea that keeps popping up. What are the runners doing after they kill people? Do they go around to everyone the guy knows and barber shop quartet style sing "We killed your friend/dad/mom/pet" and give them their contact information? Very rarely will any of them have any way to find out who killed the person much less any way to effectively strike back.

Does this type of thing happen to NPCs as well or is it just the player characters who attract this kind of thing? Does gang_thug_01 get hunted down and killed by the son of a gas station attendant he killed during a robbery?

[Pollux710]

You could use the fact that they are working with LS and KE so much, they begin to be seen as "compromised" by the normal fixers / contacts / etc. Work begins to dry up, except from LS / KE, where they are seen as unofficial, disposable SWAT teams.

Because of the LS/ KE connection, they get called to take down really big, really dangerous threats, including other runner teams.

Have LS have the team work against KE, and vice-versa. Could set up a "Fistful of Dollars" scenario.

I'll use that this is an excellent idea, I didn't even think of their shadow contacts thinking them as compromised. Now they're in a rough spot, not quite legitamate since a few of them are criminals and not quite runners either, since they are working hand in hand with local Seattle Lone Star. Hmmm, good stuff, and they've trashed a shit load of the mafias assets in the process. I'm serious these guys have been slash and burning drug dens and whore houses like Batman on Kamikaze.

I think I'm going to run with the way the game is going, obviously this IS going to have harsh consequences. Contacts will turn away, or disappear, and bad, mafioso things are going to happen, (enter car bomb), I think this is just going to make the party, with Doo-Mak at its retributive epicenter, that much more hungry for justice...I got the chills guys, I think this is going to be one of "those games".

[Pollux710]

I have one question to all you people saying really screw over your runners. What if doing that makes them not have fun anymore. When players aren't having fun then the GM has failed his job.

Period.

Hey man great post, and to the others telling me to run with it, good posts too, you're all right, its all about having fun. I'm running with it, period, and I think these kinds of personal strike backs will just be appetizers for them, Cris, my newly religious friend, is really into this whole righteous indignation thing. You should see his face as I'm describing these BTL dens burning to the ground, or watching the street doc of the party detox an ailing escort, he gets all beamy. The rest of the party really follows suit. So where to next? Other than the Crimson Crush, are there any other "benevolent" gangs or action commitees?

[Pollux710]

The OP asked what to do in order to challenge his players. We're simply giving him some input on how WE would handle it. If the mafia decided to say ''Eh, they're super-duper power rangers and we don't want to touch them because they might cry'' that doesn't sound like much of a challenge to me. Good guys face opposition too. The idea isn't to ruin their day, it's to place obstacles in their path and force them to adjust to changing circumstances.

Can they keep doing the good-guy thing with half the criminals in the city gunning for their family/loved ones/them? It's a challenge, we're not telling him to destroy them in such a way that there is no realistic possibility for them to recover or turn the tables.

More importantly, this is Shadowrun we're talking about, not Dungeons and Dragons. Being a hero in this game is more likely to get you killed than rewarded. It's the nature of the beast.

This is true too, and if any of you have checked my other posts I just brought this group from Epic 3.5 to SR and they've actually adjusted pretty damn good. They even go for stuff that I miss, like camera feeds, etc. They've really taken a liking to the Sixth World.

[Pollux710]

That seems at odd with the fact that he's arranging with terrorists to blow up buildings in downtown Seattle. Buildings that at least on paper were probly legitimate tax and security fee paying establishments. But lets say by some happy accident their dealing with either the cleanest or the most well connected untouchable cop in the city, the mafia arranges for him to die somehow or just arranges a nice big stink and the plan proceeds.




Except the OP's problem wasn't that his runners are really good, it's that he's basically wiffle balled the opposition for a long time and had some very bad dice rolls, in part because for some wierd reason he thinks in 2070+ the mafia hasn't figured out wired reflexes and bone lacing. Shadowrunners arn't hired because their the best in the world (although some are) their handled because their deniable, they fade in and out of the shadows and they keep things impersonal. In a way these runners have nullified all their best assets. While some people do enjoy playing in worlds where everyone without the magical PC tag is full bore retard stupid the OP did come around asking for what to throw at their players to challenge them. My conjecture is that the OP shouldn't be thinking in terms of pure combat encounters and start thinking non-laterally. There are two really good reasons for this 1) It keeps the game from getting stale 2) It forces you into an escalation spuiral where you have to come up with reasons not to have the NPC's just be killed suffer asphyxiation from the huge quanties of lead pressing in on their armor but also that they don't run roughshod over the oposition.

Actually my best advice for the OP? Create some actual real people in the Mafia, some Don's or lieutenants who have fought their way to the top. You can make them as modern or as cliche as you like but above all give yourself a lens to focus your response through rather then just coming up with the next combat encounter.

I want to re-iterate, I'm all for Runners playing good guys, I'm all for them improving the quality of their world, but I'm also against making it easy and not having the status quo bite back a bit. It's there for a reason after all.

AND THIS, is exactly what I AM looking for, not just for mafia soldati builds, I can do that on my own, but with alternative sources of punishment, to flavor things up. Because you're absolutely right, a game where the PC's just march over everything is going to get old quick, its the challenge that really makes things.

[Shrike30]

"Real Life Superheroes" in Seattle, or Phoenix Jones: Real Life Superhero. I've met this guy; I got into a conversation with him about buying body armor in my FLGS a month or two ago, figuring out about halfway through what he planned to use it for. I'm glad to see (via the news) that he's picking up a decent amount and is less likely to end up in the morgue.

He seemed pretty well adjusted. It's not that far out there in my head that shadowrunners would take a more aggressive approach to vigilantism if they decided that what was moral was more important than what paid.

[Angelone]

The Red Hot Nukes are fairly benevolent as well. They are an all dwarf gang of explosives expert physads who protect their neighborhood.

[kzt]

The Red Hot Nukes are fairly benevolent as well. They are an all dwarf gang of explosives expert physads who protect their neighborhood.

They are described as psychotic as hell IIRC. But yeah, they are one gang we tried really hard to not to mess with. We could handle random drive-bys, but a bunch of crazy explosives experts motivated to get even? Thanks, but no thanks.

[Manunancy]

AND THIS, is exactly what I AM looking for, not just for mafia soldati builds, I can do that on my own, but with alternative sources of punishment, to flavor things up. Because you're absolutely right, a game where the PC's just march over everything is going to get old quick, its the challenge that really makes things.

I'd add not only 'physical' (as in 'grunts of various flavors wanting to get physical with you') but as some already said some moral ones to boot. The world isn't black and white, there's plenty of shades of grey inbetween. When they burned out that BTL den, did they make sure there wasn't a few of them inside too far out on their chips to leave before getting burned ?

I don't mean making everything they do turn the worst, but show mr righteous that a war against crime is like any other war : if you don't pay attention to it, collateral damage can be serious. Which in that particular war can seriously hinder the purpose.

Also keep in mind that organised crime often provides some sort of economy where they operate : like any suscessful parasite, they need to keep their host alive rather than bleeding it dry. Things like small jobs for the unemployable, cheap goods (or even food) fallen from the truck, a modicum of crime control (rampaging go-gangs hurt business), that sort of things.

If they want their crusade to work for the best, they need to adress those needs as much as cracking mobster's heads.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I think it should be noted that the mob IS weak to direct assault, because they have a lot of immovable assets. They are strong vs. law enforcement because they can often get away clean and bribe people. The greatest danger to the mob is another mob, who doesn't need to go through all the red tape to get to them. And runners can be VERY dangerous in that respect. If they got the information angle figured out a team of high stealth, high firepower runners can seriously mess with mob operations.

It is, of course, not unrealistic for them to get any kind of trouble, too, but I'm just saying. As long as the runners keep attacking, and make sure to leave few traces, the mob CAN be kept on the defensive.

[Angelone]

They are described as psychotic as hell IIRC. But yeah, they are one gang we tried really hard to not to mess with. We could handle random drive-bys, but a bunch of crazy explosives experts motivated to get even? Thanks, but no thanks.

Might have changed over time, but from what I remember they were lead by a dwarf named Grinder who was training them up to stop "a great evil" that he wouldn't go into further detail about and would only say that while he was drunk. They were fairly benevolent and acted more of a neighborhood watch than a gang. Might have changed over time though. I don't recall reading anything about them recently.

Skraacha is an all orc gang that protects the orc underground.

[etherial]

God yes. According to Seattle 2072 one of the more important Seattle Mafia figures is a guy named Caesar “Chrome” Ciarniello. Obviously, the rank and file guys won't be as cybered as the stereotypical Yak ninja/boogieman assassins you can find in rengos that are totally in bed with the corps-- those guys are often Prime Runner level company men. But frankly, there's a lot of wiggle room between "Not As Nasty As The Best Red Samurai" and "Uncybered Pushover." Never forget that there's some cheap but brutally effective 'ware that makes sense for organizations to use en masse even if a player would almost always pay the extra one or two BP to take the next step up. For example, Muscle Replacements take up so much essence that PCs tend to skip them, but the cost of Muscle Replacements 1 is like walking around money to a Don or some of the more successful capos. Having a few guys around with jacked up attributes isn't very expensive and it makes a lot of sense given the setting.

The Mafia is a business. Businessmen buy whatever resources they need to get the job done. They will have plenty of Cyber.

[kzt]

The Mafia is a business. Businessmen buy whatever resources they need to get the job done. They will have plenty of Cyber.

Wired is CHEAP, every Mafia type who is supposed to fight will have wired 1 it if not something better. Wired 2 is 32K. A single truck hijack will cover that. Heck, Wired 3 is only 100K, but the essence cost is crazy.

[Ascalaphus]

If your players are having fun, then you shouldn't punish them. But the mob shouldn't take it lying down either, you want them to be worthy opponents.

Take a moment to think how much you as a GM would be willing to let them win. Can they kill all the current major criminals? Can they stop organized crime? Can they fix society? That's a bit too much and unlikely, but it's cool if what they do can change things for the better even if everything doesn't turn out perfect.

The Mafia has been a very effective syndicate for centuries, and for several reasons. They're good at working the System; they know how to corrupt governments. They promise the government that Mafia-controlled crime will be less violent and disruptive than a free-for-all without criminal hierarchy. Does KE/LS/the FBI really want anarchy in the criminal underworld? A war to see who'll be the new top dog?

Another important thing about the Mafia: they rule through fear. If you mess with the Mafia, they will mess with you. Kill a made man and they will kill you. That reputation is what protects the Mafia from other criminals. Killing a random made man isn't hard, but getting away with it is. So the Mafia has good reason to go after the Runners; they're bad for PR. The Mafia has perfectly good reason to hire better and better Prime Runners to kill the party if they can't do it themselves, and they have funding comparable to national governments to finance it with.

You don't have to kill off the party, but you do want the PCs to feel that the Mafia is trying to. To the Mafia, the PCs are a threat to "National Security", and that's the kind of ferocity the Mafia should be showing.

Other Syndicates will be paying attention. Are the PCs going to turn on them next, or is it just them vs. the Mafia? If it's PCs vs. the Mafia, then the Yakuza might start helping them when the Mafia scares off/kills their ordinary contacts. On the other hand, if the PCs seem to be rabidly going against all organized crime, then the Syndicates might unite against them.

There's potential for diplomacy there: the PCs trying to persuade the Yakuza not to ally with the Mafia against them. The PCs should also face Syndicate challenges over connections in the government. The Syndicates have more money, more experience and more contacts. The PCs may have good media spin now, but if the media can be convinced to turn against them...

The Mafia may frame the PCs for an attack on the Yakuza. Or on Aztechnology.

Or frame them for killing FBI agents who were widely considered corrupt; still getting them into "cop killer" territory, burning their sweet relationship with the government.



Once more, I want to address the impression I got that you think the Mafia is old-fashioned and "soft" compared to the other Syndicates. I don't think they are. The Mafia is the dominant Syndicate in Australia, Western Europe and the East Coast. There's a reason for that: they're less fixated on ritual and tradition than the Yakuza, more sophisticated and better at laundering than the Vory. They're very, very good at corrupting government and local bussiness. They have no prejudices against technology and have a broad ethnic base to draw from, with a lot of flexibility for talented people from other ethnicities.

[TheWanderingJewe...]

Players in my game are in Puyallup, near the Tarislar and have come across the Ancients, who gone the original Hells Angel model and applied the first rule "Do not screw with the locals" and have hired out as a bit of security in the area for the local hospital and other places of public interest. The Local alderman is working trying to bring KE into the place, but it's kinda rough going, given the relative lack of money in the area. The face of the group, is also doing social engineering to bring in corporates to get the place up and running between runs. players have been working the area as they want a safe base of operations to work out of. it should prove intresting over the long term

[Saint Sithney]

The players kill a mafia pimp to save some hookers.
The hookers all end up dead.

This is how rule by fear works.
Object lessons.
Since Firefly keeps getting brought up, let me remind you,
"The definition of a hero is someone who gets other people killed."


Personally, I'd steer them away from the mafia, and to something more interesting.
There's always the hired psychopath gambit, but that gets old pretty fast.

I say curve-ball the bastards.
If they're funding an orphanage, have the orphanage taken over by bug spirits.
If they're cleaning up drug rings, have the drugs lead back to Aztechnology blood cults.
If they're playing neighborhood heros, have people being kidnapped by Universal Omnitech for gene research.

Shoot the goomba is boring.
Play the setting.

[Teryon]

Why does it seem like most of the ideas presented here are just ways of punishing them in ways ranging from somewhat to majorly harshly for doing something beyond 'take corp pay, drink, rinse, repeat'...

[WyldKnight]

Because people have this need to keep the setting "pure." It's probably one of the few things I preferred about DnD. Only the most die hard ever blinked an eye at changing the setting. Even in the flame wars covered official forums.

[Saint Sithney]

Why does it seem like most of the ideas presented here are just ways of punishing them in ways ranging from somewhat to majorly harshly for doing something beyond 'take corp pay, drink, rinse, repeat'...

Because the GM has run out of ideas concerning the current circumstance and came to Dumpshock looking for ideas as to how to handle a runner team where one of the members has morally hijacked the game's direction to make war on a multi-million nuyen per year criminal enterprise which should reasonably wipe the floor with a bunch of upstart killers?

Point is, he's softballing it. He can either ramp it up with the mob until it's an all out war that precludes any other type of activity besides:

10: hit mob
20: mob hits you back
30: go to 10


This is about giving the game a future. Not telling the players what they want to play.
Dude needs to throw some spice back into it. Give them a target besides the obvious.

[WyldKnight]

After a few runs my players started feeling a bit depressed about things

Right there is the point. The setting is DEPRESSING the players. One of the players may have been the catalyst but from the sounds of it they probably would have tried to change direction anyway. The advantage of being a shadow runner is that they are off the grid. How do you track someone down when they don't exist? The players can take advantage of their ghost status. Don't make big shows of their attacks, don't leave calling cards, and don't use a fence. Only get information from trusted sources or sources that they can't be tracked from. For example all they would need is one contact to point them in the right direction. From their they could probably gain their own info by tracking marks, hacking their comms, interrogation, etc.

All the millions in the world don't mean crap if there is no realistic way to track down your targets. They can't even attack their families since they don't know who these guys are and through that don't know their families.

And there are more ways to give spice then screwing over your players. A challenge doesn't mean you have to screw over the players for what they want to do. There are tons of ways they can be challenged without destroying everything they're working for.

[Saint Sithney]

I really doubt they're playing it as "untraceable" if they're working hand in hand with the cops, but my point from before sort of bypasses that whole step in the chain.

If you can not strike at your enemies, you destroy their good works.
Look at what the Taliban does to people who wave to US troops or children who attend the schools the army built.

That's ruthlessness.
You take away the other person's victory.
You say to them, every loss for us will be a loss for you. There is no winning.
You want to talk about the setting being too depressing, take a look at the real world sometime..


I say let them kill baddies and help the downtrodden, just pick an enemy you can actually kill out and move on from. If they want to play superheros, give them a villain of the month arc. Fighting wars is dirty business.

[Ascalaphus]

There's nothing wrong with playing a Robin Hood style game. There's punk in cyberpunk too.

So some ideas on how to make it look good...

The Top Dog has more stuff
The Mob has a lot of money, weapons, goons, elite killers, cyberware, corrupt politicians and corrupt cops. On paper, they should have the advantage.

Good deeds don't pay well
A lot of things the PCs do won't be paying jobs; saving your neighbour from Mob retaliation doesn't have a paycheck attached to it.

Underdogs get sympathy
Conversely, once the PCs have some success, common people will start thinking well of the PCs. Ordinary people will hide them from the mob, give them food, warn them of Company Men making inquiries and so forth. Folk Heroes get support from the Folk.

Bad Guys Fight Dirty
Try to come up with really despicable tactics for the bad guys to use against the PCs. Not just effective tactics; make it mean.The bad guys will try to frame the PCs, to make them look bad. They'll go after friends and family. They'll hit you when you're sitting on the toilet.
It doesn't have to be successful, but it should feel threatening. It should get the players angrier at the Mob. Righteous indignation is the emotion you're shooting for. When they take down the guys responsible, the players will be cheering and howling for blood. Few things are as satisfying to players as finally defeating a hated enemy. Make sure they hate the enemy before they defeat it.

They defeat you first, then you win after all
It's a movie cliche, but the good guys often get defeated by the bad guy first. This illustrates how badass the bad guy is, and it makes eventual victory far sweeter. Don't let them defeat a major NPC the first time they deal with him. It's more satisfying if it's harder.

Heroes are lucky
On paper, the heroes shouldn't stand a chance. The Mob has more stuff, more experience, and fights dirtier. But karma smiles on good guys, and they get a lucky break now and then that allows them to square the odds. This works best if you can link the Lucky Break to something they did in the past. Someone they helped before who suddenly calls them with crucial information for example. That way, it won't feel like the GM is just giving it; they feel the earned it.

[toturi]

If you can not strike at your enemies, you destroy their good works.
Look at what the Taliban does to people who wave to US troops or children who attend the schools the army built.

That's ruthlessness.
You take away the other person's victory.
You say to them, every loss for us will be a loss for you. There is no winning.
You want to talk about the setting being too depressing, take a look at the real world sometime..

What are the PCs' primary motivations?

If the PCs care about scoring victory but do not care about keeping it, then the mob can take away that victory all they want.

If the PCs care about only defeating the mob, even it is just temporary, then it doesn't matter what the mob does.

You don't care about victory as long as they lose. You say to them it doesn't matter how much we lose as long as you lose more. Take a page from the German SS counterguerrilla warfare fighters in Russia or the Mongols when they took a resisting city. Sell the soldatos fat little children to the ghouls. True ruthlessness doesn't care about what other people think. Burn the mob businesses. Kill the capo's families. Kidnap the soldatos families if the capos are too well defended, cut them up and cook them and then feed the poor with it, record it and show it to their other soldatos and make them think that their familes are undefended while they are guarding the boss's family.

The bad guys fight dirty, but the good guys should fight dirtier.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I think there is merit to both "sides" of the advice:

They will get into increased danger by pissing people off.

And they should still be allowed to do it, because they are obviously having fun that way.

What I would add:

They are working together with the cops, now those aren't the cops of today, those are rent-a-cop private enterprises, they may follow the laws, but only those laws that apply to them. Make them witness some lone-star or KE guys beating up and disposing of a sinless. Give them accounts of the selective justice of the law enforcement.

Make their temporary allies go behind their backs.

Give them some moral conflict, don't just let them feel good about themselves. There's a reason this world is pretty devoid of heroes - most people get dirty as soon as they start fighting for something, because they have to make alliances they might regret, later. Of course, there should be a way out, but it should be a bit hidden, or ridden with personal sacrifice. Heroism comes from going the whole nine yards, you can't get it with a cakewalk. The easy way is usually the one where your intentions are subverted or where someone pulled back on purpose, only to return with a vengeance. Even a near-death stunt like in Taxi Driver shouldn't necessarily succeed, because, for instance, some people just don't want to be saved.

So, the road should be full of setbacks, pain, loss, and hardships, or else you're just giving them cheap gratification.