Wait...Shadowrunners cleaning up the streets?!?, Ok, so my gritty campaign hit a soft spot in my group Options

[Angelone]

That charity street clinic, the orphanage, and the soup kitchen down the street? Money laundering operation, BTL manufacturing facility, and drug distribution ring. Mix the good and the bad. Hell, if you really want to go over the top with it have mafia soldiers have a bring your kid to work day at the next place the runners decide to hit, or have them wear children as body armor with biomonitered explosives attached.

[Dahrken]

Take a page from the German SS counterguerrilla warfare fighters in Russia or the Mongols when they took a resisting city. (...)
The bad guys fight dirty, but the good guys should fight dirtier.

No matter how brutally effective this kind of approach could be in the short term, I don't think that a character experiencing some kind of religious illumination and seeking atonement for his past misdeeds (as exposed by the OP) would feel confortable following such role-models...

[Doc Chase]

Why does it seem like most of the ideas presented here are just ways of punishing them in ways ranging from somewhat to majorly harshly for doing something beyond 'take corp pay, drink, rinse, repeat'...

The following sentence will have three words, which I harp on people in any setting I play.

Actions have consequences.

I will say them again.

Actions have consequences.

Just as in real life, if you set a bomb somewhere, then the heat is going to come down when it goes off. You may have a Commissioner Gordon on your side who knows what you're doing and tacitly assists, but IA may be breathing down his neck if someone catches wind. The runners need to obey the Eleventh Commandment in this, and as long as they do then they won't have to worry about the other Ten. They've hit the Mob in a very public manner, and the Mob will want to hit back.

The suggestions offered have been done so in a way that targets the team without one-shotting the team. The Mob will have an idea of who to go to in order to see who has been buying up explosives, unless the team is brewing their own ANFO, in which case they may be watching the Home Depot for whoever's buying all that fertilizer. They'll lean on contacts. They'll disable a support network. And then they'll move in for the kill, ratcheting up the tension.

Frankly, this is what makes a good story arc. This is what makes a challenge. This gets the team going, to figure out a way they can put the kibosh on the Mob and keep their operation going. This is where the roleplaying Karma comes in, man!

[Saint Sithney]

No matter how brutally effective this kind of approach could be in the short term, I don't think that a character experiencing some kind of religious illumination and seeking atonement for his past misdeeds (as exposed by the OP) would feel confortable following such role-models...

Oh, toturi is just being contrary as usual and not really paying attention to the discussion at hand.

My point is that they should not be fighting a war if they want a feel good hero of the streets campaign.
Wars are fought dirty and won by atrocity. If GM wants to go that way, ratcheting up the reciprocity until the PCs "win" by becoming complete monsters, only then realizing that they've just been helping the far less restrained Asian syndicates take over the Seattle underworld, then I suppose that's a good story. Still, I don't think it's what the players want to hear.

Instead they should be on a plane hijacked by Nagas trying to make a political statement against Aztlan.
Yeah, that's right. Bringing back SoaP...

[WyldKnight]

Well thats the thing, if they're fighting a war then yes bad stuff would happen. In the real world. This is a game and sometimes it can and should for the sake of fun be treated as such. The most fun I've had was in Pink Mohawk campaigns when we would do something completely ridiculous and the everyone, including the GM, would be laughing as the dice rolled to see how awesome or see how screwed we were. Maybe they don't want a dark serious game world. Maybe they want a lighter world with crime to fight. This doesn't make it any less challenging, in fact it may be worse as the laws of logic the enemy would follow in a Black Trench Coat game no longer apply and they send a swarm of steel lynx's down Main Street.

What I think is the OP should check with his players how dark they want this world. Once they have decided whether they want Grim Dark or A Team then the proper type (not amount as both can be equally difficult) of challenge can be produced for them.

[deek]

One thing I've noticed in my own games, is that yes, even though the players were professional criminals, they were always fighting bigger evils in the megacorps they were hitting or the people they were killing. I mean, even at worst, a mission might just be a neutral outcome (in the sense of good vs. evil). I don't think there are going to be a majority of tables that are playing through gritty and diabolical murdering psychotics. I mean, I am sure there is an over abundance of players that think their PC is bad ass and could kill anything its put up against. But its another thing when players are planning truly evil and graphically sick acts just for the fun of it.

So, I agree with several of the above posts. Figure out what your players are looking to play, now that there has been a shift of priority at the table. Really, that's your job as the GM from game to game, to notice trends, notice what the players are enjoying and create more of that for everyone at the table to have fun with.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I don't think there are going to be a majority of tables that are playing through gritty and diabolical murdering psychotics. I mean, I am sure there is an over abundance of players that think their PC is bad ass and could kill anything its put up against. But its another thing when players are planning truly evil and graphically sick acts just for the fun of it.

Like Redcloack and Xykon from Order of the Stick? They are both Evil, but, as Xykon likes to put it, Redloack is the "vanilla evil for a good cause" while he is evil with capital bolded letters who takes pleasure on the suffering of others. Guess who's funnier? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Cenobite]

You should see his face as I'm describing these BTL dens burning to the ground, or watching the street doc of the party detox an ailing escort, he gets all beamy. The rest of the party really follows suit. So where to next? Other than the Crimson Crush, are there any other "benevolent" gangs or action commitees?

...where one of the members has morally hijacked the game's direction...

And the other players are going with it.

The following sentence will have three words, which I harp on people in any setting I play.

Actions have consequences.

I will say them again.

Actions have consequences.

Shadowrun is a game, and games are supposed to be fun.

To use the previous example of saving some hookers, and them later turning up dead, that essentially takes away a player victory and turns it into defeat. How is that fun?

[deek]

And the other players are going with it.


Shadowrun is a game, and games are supposed to be fun.

To use the previous example of saving some hookers, and them later turning up dead, that essentially takes away a player victory and turns it into defeat. How is that fun?

It depends on how the rest plays out. I agree with you if everything the players do, the GM just ruins it and leave the players no recourse, then no, its probably not much fun (and the GM is probably not a really good one). But, if the dead hookers end up leading into the players tracking down bigger fish, maybe tracking down a serial killer or some sort of sex trafficking ring and the player end up shutting that down...well, then I'd say that would be a much bigger victory for the group and probably a lot of fun.

I mean, really, if the players are going down that path, you might as well work them up to defeating bigger and badder antagonists.

[Teryon]

The following sentence will have three words, which I harp on people in any setting I play.

Actions have consequences.

I will say them again.

Actions have consequences.

Just as in real life, if you set a bomb somewhere, then the heat is going to come down when it goes off. You may have a Commissioner Gordon on your side who knows what you're doing and tacitly assists, but IA may be breathing down his neck if someone catches wind. The runners need to obey the Eleventh Commandment in this, and as long as they do then they won't have to worry about the other Ten. They've hit the Mob in a very public manner, and the Mob will want to hit back.

The suggestions offered have been done so in a way that targets the team without one-shotting the team. The Mob will have an idea of who to go to in order to see who has been buying up explosives, unless the team is brewing their own ANFO, in which case they may be watching the Home Depot for whoever's buying all that fertilizer. They'll lean on contacts. They'll disable a support network. And then they'll move in for the kill, ratcheting up the tension.

Frankly, this is what makes a good story arc. This is what makes a challenge. This gets the team going, to figure out a way they can put the kibosh on the Mob and keep their operation going. This is where the roleplaying Karma comes in, man!

Considering I myself have ended up pissing off the local Seattle mafia enough for the GM to start bringing it in, I hope he dosent read this particular form thread. Im already at a loss as to how to truly deal* with them in a way that just wont result in 'well we`ll kill you 5 yrs down the road or make you suffer until you die' after a few minor victories. Short of carpetbombing everywhere but the Aztech pyramid with bunkerbusters, anyway. Its far too easy to envision the multitude of ways any situation like this(mine, OP's, etc) can end badly, even not counting the methods already listed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Ah well.


*Dealing with them means a permanent solution not involving cutting a deal, working for them(already proven even more untrustworthy than standard SR expectations), working directly for a megacorp, or allowing the Yaks\Triads\Others more power. They're just as bad.

[deek]

@Teryon
In my SR experience, when it gets too hot in the kitchen, then get out. Its really a rather common theme at the tables I run and play at, that when you piss off enough people and its more trouble doing day-to-day stuff than it worth, you go under. If you can't do that effectively in the city you are in, then you go somewhere else. I'm sure you GM would love to run a series of missions for you so you can get a new SIN, physical identity and all that jazz and get started fresh someplace else.

[Teryon]

Maybe, if this wasnt just the fourth mission. I think he's got something planned, and as a Properly Paranoid Player™ I dont trust 'im. Oh, Im talking comedically mostly but Ive already taken what steps I can given character type(face) and cash resources. Just not too sure how it`ll all pan out.

[Doc Chase]

Considering I myself have ended up pissing off the local Seattle mafia enough for the GM to start bringing it in, I hope he dosent read this particular form thread. Im already at a loss as to how to truly deal* with them in a way that just wont result in 'well we`ll kill you 5 yrs down the road or make you suffer until you die' after a few minor victories. Short of carpetbombing everywhere but the Aztech pyramid with bunkerbusters, anyway. Its far too easy to envision the multitude of ways any situation like this(mine, OP's, etc) can end badly, even not counting the methods already listed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Ah well.


*Dealing with them means a permanent solution not involving cutting a deal, working for them(already proven even more untrustworthy than standard SR expectations), working directly for a megacorp, or allowing the Yaks\Triads\Others more power. They're just as bad.

Depends on how you hacked off the guidos. Did you hit them as a whole, or just rile up a local funcionary?

You've managed to handcuff yourself into "them or me" and that's bad for business. They won't blink at wiring every car that comes across anything within three digits of your (fake) SIN number, and they just might detonate to some Italian opera as well.

If you want to 'deal with them', you need to fill the vacuum that would appear by their removal, either by showing it was a personal beef with their local capo, or by taking over yourself and becoming the power (which is a whole new set of problems, natch). You don't leave a lot of options for resolution that doesn't involve fighting a war.

No deal on the table, or no willingness to broker, your only real options are to skedaddle or go Boondock Saints and hope you can decaptitate the organization in one swift move. That being the case, try to court some of the higher ups so they're salivating at the idea of a takeover instead of gearing up to take you down.

[Teryon]

Well, actually it was just refusing to pay the inflated interest on a debt I owed them(was kind of broke at the time; Im not now, but damage is done really). IC and OOC I wouldnt blink at wiring every car that even remotely gets involved with them either, its a case of 'them' being far larger. There's an accepted rate of interest for cash 'loaned', and if they're just going to randomly raise it for the sake of raising it, what trust there was(as always bare minimum) is gone. So I cant envision cutting a deal working too well, Ive little to offer as a counterpoint. Besides, we kinda ended up decapitating one of the local Yak leaders on our first mission(stealthy troll with a mono-katana), so even if they were an option theoretically, kindly disposed to the group and I they arent.

[Doc Chase]

Well, actually it was just refusing to pay the inflated interest on a debt I owed them(was kind of broke at the time; Im not now, but damage is done really). IC and OOC I wouldnt blink at wiring every car that even remotely gets involved with them either, its a case of 'them' being far larger. There's an accepted rate of interest for cash 'loaned', and if they're just going to randomly raise it for the sake of raising it, what trust there was(as always bare minimum) is gone. So I cant envision cutting a deal working too well, Ive little to offer as a counterpoint. Besides, we kinda ended up decapitating one of the local Yak leaders on our first mission(stealthy troll with a mono-katana), so even if they were an option theoretically, kindly disposed to the group and I they arent.

Wait, wait wait.

What kind of inflated interest are we talking about? Is this the goon with the Cheshire grin saying "You owe us 100% interest"?

If it's something along those lines, me as a GM pulling this on you would be seeing dual consequences in my world.

One, that's bad bad bad for business. People won't borrow money from you and you can't turn a profit if you try that kind of extortion. Two, you're giving a deniable asset with the powers of legal invisibility the moral high ground.

Now, I'm not saying 'honor among thieves' or any crap like that. It's not unheard of for them to tell you 20% interest up front.

It could still happen. The guido that does that in my realms tends to be on their own when they do it - his boss would rather replace him than throw good money after bad. Then again, I prefer 'Uncle Enzo' mafia organizations.

[Teryon]

Along the lines of 25% compounded while I was in prison, when the agreed upon was 10%. Bad for business indeed, thats my whole logic. Plot and game flow as they may though; the guy may be on his own, pushing for more cash to do his own thing. Ill find out this week probably.

[Doc Chase]

Ah. You broke the Eleventh Commandment. That 15% isn't an unreasonable increase for absolution for your sin. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Teryon]

It is in *my* book (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Im also a cheapass, despite the reasonable sums of money handed out thus far since most of it'd gone toward rebuilding life and gear. Out of curiosity, 11th commandment?

[Doc Chase]

Thou Shalt Not Get Caught.

I read a lot of Heinlein, sue me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Teryon]

*facepalm* I shouldve remembered THAT one. Read enough Heinlein m`self, just didnt make the connection. And its alot easier to follow the 11th commandment now with a chameleon suit, alot of agility and the whole stealth group...

Hm. Might have an idea after all.

[Doc Chase]

Hm. Might have an idea after all.

Eeeexcellent. Moo hoo ha ha.

[Jizmack]

...one of my gamers is going through a very religious time in his life and has decided to turn that on the game, but, in a good way really, he's deciding that his ex-criminal Shadowrunner who likes to blow things up is going to start cleaning up the streets. So far I've been playing this one by ear but they're getting more and more efficient at blowing the shxt out of gangers and mafioso's. We even roleplayed the hell out of some Lone Star under the table action, basically making the team bail bondsmen and "walking tall" types...

First – Private police forces, like Lone Star, must maintain a profit to function as an organization. Their primary source of income is linked directly to the running of the legal economy. Thus, their priorities are going to be aimed at protection of property and the safety of the workforce of the legal economy. Protecting the workforce of the illegal economy (example: rescuing a prostitute from an abusive pimp) is not the best use of their resources, which means that the PCs will get marginal or trivial support from Lone Star.

Second – The player trying to redeem himself needs a lesson in supply and demand because the entire criminal world, like just about everything else, operates on economic principles. Those that are exploited within the illegal economy (example: prostitute junkies) are commodities, and as such by “rescuing” them the PCs have decreased the quantity of that commodity available in the local illegal economy. This will effectively empower those that control the commodity because the demand has not changed, which leads to a higher value placed on the “non-rescued” commodities. The raw resource that supplies this commodity will be exploited more to bring up the quantity… a natural force in a free market. In actuality, more under-aged vulnerable girls will be targeted into forced prostitute and controlled via addiction.

Third – As with mega-corps and state powers, the mafia (corps in the illegal economy) will stop at nothing to eliminate any factor, subject, or otherwise problem that is directly putting a dent in their profits. The bigger the “dent” and the smaller the importance of the cause of the dent, the more immediate and intense the response to illuminate the cause. Short of Seattle being turned into a totalitarian police state, the PCs actions will not be tolerated for any link of time by the local mafia.

[Saint Sithney]

Then again, I prefer 'Uncle Enzo' mafia organizations.

By the books, the mafia is the good guys of the Underworld.
They don't have racist/fascist agendas like the Yaks, kidnap girls and force them into prostitution like the Vory or run drugs with the kind of savageness that the Cartels or the Triads do. And the Ringu, hell, they do pretty much all that shit at once while screwing your girlfriend.

I understand that "your/my 6th world" isn't necessarily "the 6th world" but if you're running out of ideas, the text is a pretty good place to look.

[Angelone]

The yaks also take away people's ability to control themselves via the whole bunraku thing. Shunting someone's personality aside, turning them into someone else (physically and emotionally), and making them forget if afterward? If that's not pure freaking evil I don't know what is.

[kzt]

All the millions in the world don't mean crap if there is no realistic way to track down your targets. They can't even attack their families since they don't know who these guys are and through that don't know their families.

Did they drive into a town with untraceable guns, drive up to house on a map, shoot the guy who they had a picture of as he drove down his driveway, drop the guns and leave town? That's how the Mafia tended to make it hard to track them, the men who did the hit had no connection to the guy who was hit.

There are almost always connections. How do they know about the sites they attacked? Did any of the PCs recon them? Did any PCs get wounded? Where did they get the explosives and weapons? Remember that the Mafia will likely have contacts feeding them the results of the PD/FBI/ATF investigations.