The importance of reinforcements Options

[Inncubi]

Damn... i had made a good and nice post answering a lot of the issues my posts seem to have given birth to in this thread... and it got deleted. I'll make a fat answer then:

In my games I try to take fluff and RL as basis for some responses from the people populating the universe. Theya re not crazy psychopaths killing for money (like the characters often are (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

To illustrate some inspirations for authority responses, I'll leave you with some links:

Grenades are serious:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3274501.stm

Bomb threat response, arguably grenades are bombs, not just 10P and reduced power according to distance:
http://www.kent.police.uk/about_us/our_org...ies/m/m026.html

An incredibly well made raid to save hostages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_embassy_hostage_crisis

Response for a "possible" gun:
http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2...Police-Response

Automatic weapons (AR) and the failure of police to respond properly. They still sent a couple choppers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

Hope this helps in understanding my point.

[Doc Chase]

The Hollywood Shootout is the dictionary reference for the subsequent upgrading of arms and armor to civilian police forces in the U.S. It's why they've got an M4 or M16 instead of a pump-action in the car now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Or including the pump action.

IIRC, it's also why SWAT marksmen are carrying anti-materiel rifles, beisdes the fact they make vehicle escapes...difficult. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Kagetenshi]

Damn... i had made a good and nice post answering a lot of the issues my posts seem to have given birth to in this thread... and it got deleted. I'll make a fat answer then:

In my games I try to take fluff and RL as basis for some responses from the people populating the universe. Theya re not crazy psychopaths killing for money (like the characters often are (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

To illustrate some inspirations for authority responses, I'll leave you with some links:

Grenades are serious:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3274501.stm

Bomb threat response, arguably grenades are bombs, not just 10P and reduced power according to distance:
http://www.kent.police.uk/about_us/our_org...ies/m/m026.html

An incredibly well made raid to save hostages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_embassy_hostage_crisis

Response for a "possible" gun:
http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2...Police-Response

Automatic weapons (AR) and the failure of police to respond properly. They still sent a couple choppers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

Hope this helps in understanding my point.

To the extent that your point is "I play my game this way", or maybe even "this is based on how the modern real world works where there's some semblance of government", we understood that long ago. Again, though, my counterpoint is that while however you decide to play at your table is just fine, once you move into the forum of public discussion you need to start considering whether the way things work at your table is reasonable, not from the perspective of the world you've created, but from the shared reality created by canon material.

To that end, your links are irrelevant—they're not about canon, and they can't be used to infer things about a part of canon that isn't well-covered because this area is well-covered. The Spikes control Interstate 5, and Lord Togo's lieutenant-slash-girlfriend likes to ride around with a rocket launcher in one hand (and an SMG in the other, presumably as an afterthought). The Red-Hot Nukes go around demolishing corporate research installations with high-grade home-cooked explosives. The Ancients have bleeding-edge military equipment supplied to them by the Tir. Your campaign simply does not, for significant purposes in this thread, resemble canon Shadowrun.

~J

[kzt]

In some of the extreme response cases given by others posters, I hope they take into account the amount of time it takes to organize and mobilize that many units. Also in the case of large numbers or cars or units (or small armies in some cases apparently) responding they don't all get there at once, even if there was enough road for them to all show up on the same combat turn its going to take them several combat rounds just to park, get out of thier vehicles, and organize things. Reinforcements on turn 3, doesn't meant that after turn 3 theres 20 security vehicles neatly lined up in a barricade with officers taking cover behind them, a swat team busting down the door, and a couple of snipers in perfect position across the street.

SR combat is unreasonably fast, so responses unfortunately also need to be unreasonably fast.

[sunnyside]

The Spikes control Interstate 5, and Lord Togo's lieutenant-slash-girlfriend likes to ride around with a rocket launcher in one hand (and an SMG in the other, presumably as an afterthought). The Red-Hot Nukes go around demolishing corporate research installations with high-grade home-cooked explosives. The Ancients have bleeding-edge military equipment supplied to them by the Tir. Your campaign simply does not, for significant purposes in this thread, resemble canon Shadowrun.

I remember an adventure featuring the Anciencts, and as I recall they kept all the combat to the barrens. I think I still have that old book somewhere...

Corp facilities are usually outside of LS jurisdiction.

Still, I think cannon is inconsistant on these matters. I don't know that it's neccessarily more correct to call some gang stuff "right" over other sections.

I'd think about the only way to incorporate everything would be by using various rationalizations, such as various groups having "special understandings" with LS. Which I suppose would fit with the setting...

[Fyndhal]

Modern America is a far cry from the situation in the UCAS of Shadowrun. Our police are government funded, rather than being contractors hired out. There are relatively few areas in a city where the police are not allowed to go due to jurisdiction problems. In the UCAS, only high or very high security areas have the sort of police protection that we take for granted.

Think about it this way. Wearing a Heavy Pistol on your belt will get you noticed by the cops and possibly arrested (depending on where you live, permits, etc.) If you're in Shadowrun's Barrens, you had BETTER be wearing a Heavy Pistol at least, or you should expect lots of trouble.

[sunnyside]

Modern America is a far cry from the situation in the UCAS of Shadowrun. Our police are government funded, rather than being contractors hired out. There are relatively few areas in a city where the police are not allowed to go due to jurisdiction problems. In the UCAS, only high or very high security areas have the sort of police protection that we take for granted.

Think about it this way. Wearing a Heavy Pistol on your belt will get you noticed by the cops and possibly arrested (depending on where you live, permits, etc.) If you're in Shadowrun's Barrens, you had BETTER be wearing a Heavy Pistol at least, or you should expect lots of trouble.

Well I think we all agree on the Barrens bit. The question is what happens if you're wandering around with an assault rifle or rocket launcher downtown, or frag a few rooms in a nice hotel.

That being said in real life the police are usually only good for showing up to examine your corpse and see if they can figure out who did it. I think eight minutes is about the time it takes to get someone on scene, which seems fast...but it's also an eternity. I'm just saying owning a firearm might not be something you want to do in real life as well as fiction.

[Doc Chase]

Well I think we all agree on the Barrens bit. The question is what happens if you're wandering around with an assault rifle or rocket launcher downtown, or frag a few rooms in a nice hotel.

That being said in real life the police are usually only good for showing up to examine your corpse and see if they can figure out who did it. I think eight minutes is about the time it takes to get someone on scene, which seems fast...but it's also an eternity. I'm just saying owning a firearm might not be something you want to do in real life as well as fiction.

As acquaintances of mine are fond of saying, "When seconds count, the police are minutes away."

In light of such, I would think owning a firearm is exactly what you want to do in real life and in fiction. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Kagetenshi]

I remember an adventure featuring the Anciencts, and as I recall they kept all the combat to the barrens. I think I still have that old book somewhere...

The opening scene of Elven Fire has the Ancients gear up and go to war, gathering on Westlake Avenue to go seize the turf "from Dexter to Aurora, starting at Harrison and going on down to Denny" (Google Maps link). It's only a few blocks, but if you'll scroll five, maybe six hundred meters to the West, you may notice the Space Needle—this isn't the Barrens. The weaponry they describe packing isn't full military-grade, but, well, I'll list it and you can judge for yourself:

(This is obviously non-exhaustive, it's just what gets explicitly mentioned in the text)

A Ranger-Arms sniper rifle, an Ingram of unspecified make (presumably one of the SMGs), multiple LAWs, an HK227, and a mage powerful enough to cast a spell (presumably Lightning Bolt) at high enough Force to affect a heavily-armored vehicle and then multiple Fireballs and some form of single-target combat spell without taking Drain.

Their opposition, a gang of significantly less exceptional lineage, fields: two "heavily armored trucks", an AK-97, and a trained Barghest.

All, again, less than two-thirds of a kilometer from the Space Needle.

(As an aside, this is part of what I love about Shadowrun—that it was set in a city that the writers were deeply familiar with. How many games can you take a piece of intro fiction, pull out a map, and find out exactly where everything is going down?)

~J

[UmaroVI]

I suspect it's best to just not think too hard about whether a certain amount of armed response "makes sense" and instead focus on whether running it a certain way leads to the type of game you want. If you think too hard about what "makes sense" you quickly realize that the only sane way to have security work is dual-natured wards, and a network of mages who astrally project, speed over, and swamp the area with spirits. And that's not very fun.

[Ascalaphus]

Sometimes LS/KE might secretly applaud gangs for raiding extraterritorial corporate facilities. Especially if those facilities were pissing LS/KE off by not extraditing fugitives seeking shelter from LS/KE.

[Aku]

Also, consider this. Any run in a corp facility, is going to have security, obviously, and possibly the building is rigged with mics in every hallway, so any gun shots could be heard by the security office, and know where they came from, instantly.

In a non corp loc, i call LS/KE in when it "feels" right.

[kzt]

Sometimes LS/KE might secretly applaud gangs for raiding extraterritorial corporate facilities. Especially if those facilities were pissing LS/KE off by not extraditing fugitives seeking shelter from LS/KE.

Yup. If you piss off the people who control the land around your facility you can expect that investigation of the sniper attack that kills the VP is going to be investigated as a misdemeanor "discharging firearm inside city limits". Because to LS, that is the only crime. People dying in other countries isn't their problem. And they will of course arrest anyone from the corp that tries to do their own investigation.

[sunnyside]

Their opposition, a gang of significantly less exceptional lineage, fields: two "heavily armored trucks", an AK-97, and a trained Barghest.

All, again, less than two-thirds of a kilometer from the Space Needle.

Hmmmm. I wonder if there has been authority creep across the editions. You're right, the book was "elven fire". But it was very first edition.

Though when looking up when it came out (1991) the tag line indicates that LS was planning to use the violence as a pretext to declare martial law, so they might have had some ulterior motive there.

All and all it has more cyberpunk flavor and less of the post-cyberpunk flavor shadowrun became known for.

[Kagetenshi]

Hmmmm. I wonder if there has been authority creep across the editions. You're right, the book was "elven fire". But it was very first edition.

Though when looking up when it came out (1991) the tag line indicates that LS was planning to use the violence as a pretext to declare martial law, so they might have had some ulterior motive there.

True, but the intro section that that battle features in is entirely unrelated to the violence that LS is up in arms about—some time after the intro, a group backed by a Tir faction rivaling the Ancients' backers appears that repeatedly and aggressively provokes battles with the Ancients, triggering essentially open warfare between the Ancients and everyone with a grudge against them. The plot summary also mentions that this sparks other unrelated gangs to take their rivalries into open warfare. The entire city basically became a war zone before the crackdown came onto the table.

(It should also be noted that when the tagline says "martial law", it quite literally means Governor Schultz deploying the Metroplex Guard. Lone Star doesn't get paid for the actions of the Metroplex Guard, so plausible ulterior motives mostly center around not having to expend their own assets on the cleanup.)

(As a side note, I need to quote the Debugging section of the first part of Elven Fire now: "If the runners get geeked by a pack of punks like these, they don't deserve to play this adventure. Go to Character Generation. Go directly to Character Generation. Do not pass Go. Do not collect 200¥.")

All and all it has more cyberpunk flavor and less of the post-cyberpunk flavor shadowrun became known for.

I'd argue that the full leap into post-cyberpunk was an SR4 thing, though there was a trend towards it from around Shadows of Europe onwards.

~J

[sunnyside]

I'd argue that the full leap into post-cyberpunk was an SR4 thing, though there was a trend towards it from around Shadows of Europe onwards.

~J

I guess my point is that I wonder if gangs having open warfare downtown has gone the way of cyberdecks. The different editions don't just try and recreate the same thing with different rules. They advance time, taking out cities, corporations, arcologies, adding things like Otaku and technomancers, and changing the flavor and setting somewhat each time.

[Kagetenshi]

I guess my point is that I wonder if gangs having open warfare downtown has gone the way of cyberdecks.

Which would feed back into my argument that SR1-3 and SR4 cannot meaningfully be discussed as the same world. Bad thread-starter, not using edition tags! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

They advance time, taking out cities, corporations, arcologies, adding things like Otaku and technomancers, and changing the flavor and setting somewhat each time.

Otaku are old; I think they got brought in with the first Virtual Realities. The big changes you're talking about are pretty much unique to SR4 as far as by-edition demarcation goes, though there's a visible trend towards it starting late in 3rd edition (I generally set the line at Shadows of Europe).

~J

[sunnyside]

Which would feed back into my argument that SR1-3 and SR4 cannot meaningfully be discussed as the same world. Bad thread-starter, not using edition tags! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, I think most people like their fluff enough to consider them all the same world. It's simply that the times, they be a changing. I mean we're talking about a span of what, about 25 years now? That's more than enough time for dramatic change.

Now that I'm thinking about it I'm getting the feeling that, while inconsistant, the flavor goes something like:

1st edition: Gang wars downtown
2nd edition: Lone Star sourcebook gives them some teeth, somewhere the first response time table appears, with roughly the flavor text of the later one, but with a disclamer that the times listed are unrealistically fast, but have been found to play well.
3rd edition: Amped up response time table
4th edition: The cameras and drones! They're everywhere! Big brother has an RFID tag stamped on your underpants!

Also within edition LS seem to get buffed by sourcebooks, which often introduce an array of new vehicles, drones, and sometimes cyberware or combat drugs for them, and upgrade whatever sidearm they have in the main book with the Ruger Thunderbolt.


Obviously I'm basing this off of memery, and editions have a way of blurring together. But how does that seem to you?

[Kagetenshi]

Well, I think most people like their fluff enough to consider them all the same world. It's simply that the times, they be a changing. I mean we're talking about a span of what, about 25 years now? That's more than enough time for dramatic change.

I think that this only appears to be the case because of the poorly-defined nature of "fluff", and that in fact the fluff is incompatible, but I don't have time right now to do the research and thinking necessary to present a proper argument for that.

Timeline-wise, assuming that the changes have been gradual (not sure either way, need to do the research on that too) this is still an argument for clearly separating them; consider many discussions here as if they were historical discussions, only the period under discussion spans from the Great War to the Great Patriotic War and people rarely specify a more specific sub-period.

Now that I'm thinking about it I'm getting the feeling that, while inconsistant, the flavor goes something like:

1st edition: Gang wars downtown
2nd edition: Lone Star sourcebook gives them some teeth, somewhere the first response time table appears, with roughly the flavor text of the later one, but with a disclamer that the times listed are unrealistically fast, but have been found to play well.
3rd edition: Amped up response time table
4th edition: The cameras and drones! They're everywhere! Big brother has an RFID tag stamped on your underpants!

Also within edition LS seem to get buffed by sourcebooks, which often introduce an array of new vehicles, drones, and sometimes cyberware or combat drugs for them, and upgrade whatever sidearm they have in the main book with the Ruger Thunderbolt.


Obviously I'm basing this off of memery, and editions have a way of blurring together. But how does that seem to you?

I don't believe this trend to be the case, at least not in a smooth manner, but I don't have time at the moment to do the research.

(So about half of this post was "I'll get back to this" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

~J

[pbangarth]

... but I don't have time right now to do the research and thinking necessary to present a proper argument for that.
.
.
.
I don't believe this trend to be the case, at least not in a smooth manner, but I don't have time at the moment to do the research.

(So about half of this post was "I'll get back to this" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

~J

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) I could prove it if I could, but I can't right now, so I won't. But consider it proven. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Kagetenshi]

Hey, it's not quite like that! I could be wrong!

Pretty sure I'm not, of course, but it's possible (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

(Also, I'm not asking anyone to consider it proven during the interim, either.)

~J

[sunnyside]

I'm pretty sure about the Thunderbolt part, at least for editions 2-4. I think making the switch would have a big impact particularily in 4th edition where LS grunts in the main book are armed with a Colt L_ame36 or something weak like that.

[Lantzer]

Think about it this way. Wearing a Heavy Pistol on your belt will get you noticed by the cops and possibly arrested (depending on where you live, permits, etc.) If you're in Shadowrun's Barrens, you had BETTER be wearing a Heavy Pistol at least, or you should expect lots of trouble.

One quibble. A visible Heavy pistol better have the reflexes to back up the threat in the deep Barrens. Otherwise, the bearer is one ambush away from supplying a ganger with a weapon upgrade. A firearm is not a defense. It's an offense. What is far more effective in the Barrens is having freinds with you - people who watch your back.

[Fyndhal]

One quibble. A visible Heavy pistol better have the reflexes to back up the threat in the deep Barrens. Otherwise, the bearer is one ambush away from supplying a ganger with a weapon upgrade. A firearm is not a defense. It's an offense. What is far more effective in the Barrens is having freinds with you - people who watch your back.

No disagreement, here.