Stock Prices Options

[sgtbarnes_ky]

Question to the Forum, Is there a listing of prices for Stock in the individual AAA Mega-Corps? I was thinking as a reward for a run giving Stock options in several different AAA Corps, but I'd like to know if there is a price list somewhere first before I just make up a price on my own. Is there an ECSE listing somewhere?

[Doc Chase]

Not that I know of. It would be far too difficult to set up in the system since the actions the runners tend to do would directly affect that stock price the next day.

I'd honestly go off some of the big companies like it on the NYSE.

[sgtbarnes_ky]

Yeah that was my plan to use actual real life Stock prices, was just hoping there was a list somewhere, D'OH. Thanks

[Runner Smurf]

This has come up so often in my various games that I've had to come up with a basic set of house rules for dealing with stock, and for dealing with the (inevitable) stock manipulation runs.

My house rule is this: This is Shadowrun, not Monopoly. You want to play the stock market, get an etrade account.

That being said, I do allow players to buy stock, get paid in stock, etc. I don't worry about the number of shares. If they do something to manipulate the market, good or bad, they can make a 5% return on whatever they invested. Run goes bad, they lose 10%. My restrictions are:
1. You have to have a rock-solid ID to go with it: rating 6+ or a full-on legitimate SIN.
2. You leave a data trail that cannot be cleared. Do this sort of thing too often (e.g. more than 1-2 times a year) and the CC will notice. The CC will not be happy with you, or with your employers. Your employers will get extremely pissed. Your employers may be compelled by the CC to eliminate you. A shadow asset that gets their employer in trouble cannot be tolerated.

I don't let the runners use shadow-banks or the like to conceal their data trail, as the overhead for those services will more than offset any gains they might make. And I make it clear that overdoing this sort of thing is against street-etiquette.

Anything more significant in the way of financial transactions, fraud, major manipulation are runs in and of themselves.

[sunnyside]

My two cents on this is that the AAAs as a whole are too big to generally be influence by runners. Any given facility would represent only a tiny fraction of their worth. You could still give the players stock options though, but it should be epic if they players move 'em any.

If you want to see any flux go with smaller stuff. Maybe some companies owned by the megas still have their own stock. In this case players could affect things.

However recall that part of the plot element of SR is that Runners in part exist because it isn't in the corps interests to squash them. The corps know that the unwashed sociopaths that stole their prototype aren't using it for themselves, they're handing it off to the competition. After all is said and done going after the runners just cuts into the bottom line.

When runners are in it for themselves though, that's an entirely different equation. And it's a distinction I'd suggest GMs keep in mind, lest the players get the idea of just stealing stuff and whatnot.

[Karoline]

I have to agree with Sunnyside. Unless the runners manage to completely destroy an entire archeology or something, the change in stock prices is going to not be more than a few fractions of a percent. And of course, Runners are generally going to be more able to decrease the value of stock, as opposed to increase it. Yeah, sure you stole SuperCoolNewTechPrototype^tm for some mega. That means that in a few years they'll start getting profits from it, and by that time, a billion other factors are going to have contributed to stock prices.

And of course, the PCs aren't the only runners in existance. There are hundreds (thousands? More?) of other running teams out there that are also going to be causing prices to fluctuate. And then there is going to be the (entirely more significant) actual business that the company is involved in.

It's kind of like buying stock in McDonalds and then expecting going to McDonalds for lunch is going to have any real affect on the prices.

As to the OP. I suggest just giving out X value of stock, as opposed to Y stock each worth Z. Then every month you can roll Dd6 (D being a randomly picked number based on how well you feel the company should be doing in general. Generally 6 would be the minimum for a company that isn't on a fast track to bankruptcy). Each hit represents a 1% increase in stock prices, each 1 represents a 1% decrease in stock prices. A glitch indicates an extra 2% decrease in stock prices. A critical glitch represents a 10% decrease in stock prices.

Feel free to adjust to your needs. Maybe you roll weekly and it represents .1% changes, or daily and it represents .1% changes. Up to you.

[AppliedCheese]

I would imagine that the stock in the actual AAA prime companies is not publicly traded. Lofwyr, Damien Knight, and such are going to make sure that anything relating to their board and shareholders is a managed and controlled asset, not something that is going to run up and down on the trading floor.

The subsidiaries and such probably have their own stock (albeit with a substantial portion controlled by the prime corp) which IS publicly traded. They almost assuredly do, if only so that the powers that be don't lose too much money when a small portion of their empire suffers a setback. Incidentally, as some of these corps are more local, they are also more susceptible to runner influence.

For example: Martin's Meats may be majority owned by the Seattle Division of AZT, and fill the gristle lockers of the local Stuff-A-Burger (AZT international franchise, publicly traded, 51% control as a corporate holding by AZT prime), but still retain a good portion of its stock on the market as a nominally independent entity. When the runners expose cannibalism, the Martin's Meats stock will plummet, even though AZT Seattle, AZT Prime, and Stuff-A-Burger will continue to plunge ahead unscathed. Similarly, when Jenny's Cow Co-op burns to the ground, MM stock will go up as they start to fill other Seattle meat needs.

It goes without saying that Martin's Meat, even as a multi-million nuyen undertaking, is still essentially penny-stocks next to the big boys.

[Doc Chase]

No.

It's common knowledge that major megacorp stock is traded - you can be paid in it if you so request. Novatech's IPO is what kickstarted Crash 2.0. One doesn't have the money to buy an equity stake in any mega unless they are hyper-rich, let alone a controlling stake, but one can still get a minority stake and voting rights as a shareholder in any megacorp save possibly Saeder-Krupp. Lofwyr does not release his shares easily.

[sgtbarnes_ky]

There is presidence for giving stock as a reward, the Shadowrun Misssions used as payment for a Run, players recieved Ares stock as part of a Run. Karoline I really like your idea of just giving x amount of stock and having it fluctuate a some by a weekly basis that makes sense to me. I would never say though runners could influence stock that much in a given game unless as was stated it was an earth shatttering event to that corp. The basic idea was that my players came across a very large amount of loot, a mistake on my part that would have left them 8 figures richer. So through hook and by crook and a little GM handwavium i decided to keep the loot they had gotten away with, let then keep their lives, and rewarded them with what I had origally planned to give them. Yes, my players were a tad bit upset, that's understandable, my bad, but i did compensate them handsomely. I was just thinking instead if giving out Ebony credsticks to everyone, why not other types of material loot, CYBER/BIO enhancement, luxery trips to exotic locals, shopping sprees, Stock options. It's not as shiney as what they had and they still grumble at me which is their right but they got rewarded and are happy. Always know the value of the loot you are giving before you give, no one likes an Indian giver, take it from me, learn from my mistake. Still though several good ideas in this thread thanks guys

[Karoline]

No.

It's common knowledge that major megacorp stock is traded - you can be paid in it if you so request. Novatech's IPO is what kickstarted Crash 2.0. One doesn't have the money to buy an equity stake in any mega unless they are hyper-rich, let alone a controlling stake, but one can still get a minority stake and voting rights as a shareholder in any megacorp save possibly Saeder-Krupp. Lofwyr does not release his shares easily.

I'd imagine that Lofwyr could care less as long as he holds 51% of the stock.

Edit: And thanks. I figured it was a quick and easy way to deal with stock prices that didn't involve some kind of economics degree and creating a world economy. I'm guessing you're the one that gave your group Orchurium by the weight and later found out that a unit was 20g when you thought it was around a kilo? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Then there's the issue of laundering profits from whatever fake SIN you used to buy and sell the stock.

You will lose a certain percentage in the process, so you really don't want to pull the funds out of the SIN account unless you make a huge profit somewhere.



-k

[Nath]

Share price is not directly related to a corporation's size. The price of a single Google share is currently around $600, a single Microsoft share is 25$. Yet, Microsoft market value is $217 billions, Google is $190 billions (and the gap was far wider just a few months ago). This kind of things depends on public offering price, if the corporation funded growth rather through share emission or debt, and the use stock options, split, repurchase, etc. Nowadays, most long-lived corporations try to keep their share price between $20 and $80, for psychological as well as tactical reasons regarding market liquidity.

[Doc Chase]

I'd imagine that Lofwyr could care less as long as he holds 51% of the stock.

I would disagree. S-K is his baby; giving up any piece of it would imply weakness.

[sgtbarnes_ky]

You are correct Karoline, it was I that allowed my group to make off with not one but two, 100 lbs. bars of orichalcum, before I realized it was over 2.2 million nuyen a pound, WHOOPS. Yeah I took that back and gave then materialistic rewards instead, a trip to a Delta clinic and a shopping spree in Neo-Tokyo,, access to DIMR's magical library for study. Yeah I'm a nice Gm, But not that nice, as everything was done through Ghostwalker. I quess it was better to deal with the Dragon than rot away in a PCC military facility for the rest of their lives. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) WHOOPS, my bad ya'll

[Karoline]

Who in the world would make 100 pound bars of anything? Generally even ingots used in large scale metal work are limited to around 20ish pounds for ease of use, as well as allowing quicker and easier melting of the ingots.

Out of curiosity, how much did you think you were giving them, because you obviously knew orichalcum is valuable, just a bit off on how valuable by weight (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Doc Chase]

Who in the world would make 100 pound bars of anything? Generally even ingots used in large scale metal work are limited to around 20ish pounds for ease of use, as well as allowing quicker and easier melting of the ingots.

Out of curiosity, how much did you think you were giving them, because you obviously knew orichalcum is valuable, just a bit off on how valuable by weight (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Dragons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Karoline]

Heh, they'd need specialized equipment just for themselves. That would make it all the better to them.

[MJBurrage]

In my experience large American companies today tend to split their stock if the value gets to around $100 per share. There are exceptions since some companies want to be more or less often traded on the market.

The Shadowrun equivalent would be a AA corp. or a subsidiary of one of the megas. So if you need a value I would go with between 50 and 100 ¥ (if you need a random value, use 40+1d6×10). (note, in my campaigns this is what you are getting when you paid in stock, so "Ares stock" that is just shorthand for what you actually get, which is shares in named subdivision.

Of course if your just using the stock as a means of payment then I would ignore the number of shares, and just use value. I would also treat it like corp scrip; in my games you can spend corp scrip etc. normally but you leave an easy to follow paper trail. To leave no trail, you go through a shadow bank and they take half for "fees and services".

As for using runs to manipulate the market, IMHO most targets are too large for any normal run to have a noticeable effect. For the smaller targets I impress upon my players that such extra-curricular income is seen as unprofessional since it attracts extra attention, and/or is cutting into the Johnson's plans.

[sgtbarnes_ky]

Actually I harkend back to the bygone days of Earthdawn, when they would use the true elements to make the stuff. I used the conveince of the Deep Lacuna under the L.A sprawl to lead them on a magical adventure to the LOST CITY OF ORICHALCUM, where Orichalcum was massed produced way back in the 4th world. So they bulled a few bricks of it up from the pavement and took it with them, they also used there bullet casings to hide extra grams in, they really did a good job of hidding it on themselves. They also fould 4 magical tomes made of carved pages of Diamond/Ruby/Emerald/Sapphire. My original flaw was thinking a unit was one pound not 20 grams. So after a fire fight with a Blood Mage and here Blood Jaguar goons they made their escape only to be interdicted by PCC military aircraft, after being forced to land at the Groom Lake military base they where placed in holding. Where the Great Dragon Ghostwalker sprung them from. Again large amounts of Handwavium and railroading where used at this point which upset a few(I mean all my players), but the reward i gave then wass good enough that they kinda forgave me and just grumbled to themselves about getting their hard earned loot confiscated by a Dragon. Again, learn from my mistake, know the price of loot your gonna give your players first, D'OH. Anyway my players are excited now, and are nagging me on whaty they can get with their money in Neo-Tokyo. We playu again this Saturday and they can't wait. I guess i did ok in the end but feel stupid for the mistake, as I should, live and learn i guess

[Snow_Fox]

to address the first posting here, no there's no price list set out.

secondly it has been kicked around many times and in general it is not possible for runner to affect the price of a stock unless it's like a major run-like destroying a space station, prototype of a new plane, killing the CEO and on that scale the runners will be having an entire AAA falling on them and will probably not have the tiem to make that call to e-trade

[Aku]

I donno, i think it depends on who/what you're running against. Yea, sabotaging a AAA's single research project might not set it back that much, but if you're talking about a lower level company, an upstart, or even a subsidiary of a AAA that specializes in a certain topic, than destruction of their/a prototype, or even manufacturing process, could be very bad.

[Snow_Fox]

I was thinknig of the film Casino Royal where they are planning on destroying the prototype air liner, even then it's the target of a normal corp not a tripple A, that has so much diversity that even that would probably not do it

[jakephillips]

I like to pay my runners in Corp Scrip not stock so that they have to spend that money with the corp that hired them or that they think hired them. For small B, A, corps runner actions like stealing the new proto type I-Deck 5000 might set back the public perception of the company back a few percentages because of public perception. Most stock fluctuations are not caused by an actual drop on the value of the company but by a perceived value.

[Ascalaphus]

As I recall, availability of stock simply isn't the same for all AAAs.

NeoNET - some of it is publicly traded due to the Novatech IPO
Aztechnology - not publicly traded, and because of that they don't have to disclose who owns shares
Ares - probably nobody willing to sell, because control is heavily contested
Shiawase - heavily contested by the family members, therefore nothing on the market that's not immediately bought by one of the family members
Renraku - might be some available
MCT - might be some available; existing shareholders are well enough balanced against each other
S-K - the feud between Lofwyr and Graff-Beloit probably cleaned out the market, and Lofwyr is just territorial about his stock; it's a dragon thing
Evo - might be some available, with a lot of losers of the infighting between racist Japanese and "metas" selling their stock while the getting is good
Wuxing - ?
Horizon - the mystery of what's really behind Horizon will not yet be revealed...

I wouldn't bother too much with fluctuating share prices. Tell the player the value's changed now and then when you want to showcase some background development in the world; "Evo's new line of X products is doing really well, and your shares have increased in value a bit."

The real value of the shares is access; you can go to shareholders meetings and read all kinds of reports on the state of the company.

[Tiralee]

The Old Corporate Download covered the availability of stock (Briefly, because of the old "I shot Cross of Cross Allied Tech! Woo!" issue was obviously forseen) but has anyone considered using the "Punch"/"Star Power" rules of Shadowbeat?

They could be tweaked with the right input (Size of corp, degree of public exposure/threat, payoff) and it's an existing mechanic.

Hmm, how to assign though...


I think I'll have a crack at this.

-Tir.