Infiltration when the camera/sensor/spirit's position/range is unkown Options

[mmmkay]

Infiltration past a known entity is documented in the books, but how do you deal with infiltration past a hidden camera/unknown sensor/spirit (if you didn't have astral perception)?

Similarly how do you deal with partial information: like you know a guard is on duty but you don't know where he is or you know there's a camera in this general area but it's not clear where exactly it is, which seems useful for infiltration.

[Fabe]

That sounds like a situation where the GM would make a few secret rolls to see if the Character get spotted.

[thetrav]

Infiltration past a known entity is documented in the books, but how do you deal with infiltration past a hidden camera/unknown sensor/spirit (if you didn't have astral perception)?

Similarly how do you deal with partial information: like you know a guard is on duty but you don't know where he is or you know there's a camera in this general area but it's not clear where exactly it is, which seems useful for infiltration.

As a GM, I would not require a player to make infiltration checks if they new where the guard was and if they could therefore completely avoid the guard.

If they didn't know where the guard was, then I'd know where the guard was, and then it's a case of making the infiltration checks on their behalf (if they are taking a lot of caution to sneak around) or, if they weren't trying, I'd just have the guard/camera automatically detect them.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* Sounds like normal infiltration to me. You move in a way that minimizes exposure to potential observers, not necessarily known ones. It's a very abstract skill.

[mmmkay]

oh I guess I didn't understand infiltration at all

a long time ago there was a thread on a mundane infiltration specialist getting upset that spirits could just watch him do his thing

and it would make sense to me that if you could see the spirits you'd have an advantage in infiltrating (or at least not a disadvantage) which would imply something about similar scenarios.

So what is the difference between an infiltrator that can see in the astral and an infiltrator that cannot? Are they both equally effective against astral opponents?

[Yerameyahu]

I didn't realize the spirit was the crucial point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Stealth against astral is a tricky subject, and we've had a couple threads about it before. The short answer is that it's pretty hard, especially if you can't see the astral, but there are definitely things you can try (like hiding in crowds, behind solid objects, etc.). However, if *you* can see the spirit, it can almost certainly see you.

I agree that infiltration when you know where the guards/sensors are is different (easier), but I've never heard a specific way GMs handle that. I just change the threshold, or maybe the runner avoids having Perception rolled against him entirely. Still, it's usually Agility + Infiltration to successfully move in a way that avoids those sensors or patrols. Or the cinematic laser-grid in the vault. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Just kidding, those are stupid.

[StealthSigma]

I didn't realize the spirit was the crucial point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Stealth against astral is a tricky subject, and we've had a couple threads about it before. The short answer is that it's pretty hard, especially if you can't see the astral, but there are definitely things you can try (like hiding in crowds, behind solid objects, etc.). However, if *you* can see the spirit, it can almost certainly see you.

I agree that infiltration when you know where the guards/sensors are is different (easier), but I've never heard a specific way GMs handle that. I just change the threshold, or maybe the runner avoids having Perception rolled against him entirely. Still, it's usually Agility + Infiltration to successfully move in a way that avoids those sensors or patrols. Or the cinematic laser-grid in the vault. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Just kidding, those are stupid.

I just assume that every surface of every wall is coated in motion sensors.

[Yerameyahu]

Agreed: for what sensors cost, there's no real reason for any installation to skimp. That's why you have hackers.

[mmmkay]

I'm not sure why, but to me infiltration is probably the most misunderstood skill.

I mean let's say you are in a hallway 2m wide, 3m tall, and 30m long with a camera mounted above a door that is the entrance to a room that you are trying to enter.

How in the world can you sneak past a camera in such a limited scenario? It doesn't seem to matter if you have 100 infiltration dice or 1... it doesn't seem possible.

Some DSers might respond by saying you have to hack it (but maybe it's outside of your range), or invisibility spell is the key (let's say mage is down), or that you have to enter through another entrance cause this is too hard, but this just seems ridiculous. Maybe a successful infiltration test implies you spiderman it on the ceiling.

I think I understand astral infiltration now, but infiltration effectiveness seems largely dependent on stuff that has nothing to do with an infiltration skill.

Furthermore people seem to be of the impression that if you know where a camera is, then you can avoid it so you don't have to roll anything. Suddenly the best infiltrators are the perceptive types...

Additionally if you don't know where a camera is then likely there are many paths that you can travel from point A to point B, but you'd have to make some kind of intuition roll to determine what is more ideal/optimal. Consider the simple example of the same room 2m x 3m x 30m that has a thin sheet that separates the room into two 1m x 3m x 30m sections. You can choose either the left or right room and there is a hidden camera located in the right room. Do you automatically let the runner infiltrate if they choose the left room and then automatically fail them if they choose the right room? Well since this is a simple example so for a generic example extrapolate this to a case where the infiltration paths are hard to enumerate.

What do you do?

[HunterHerne]

There are other ways to beat cameras. Sure, you can hack the camera, but why do that when you can just set up a jammer? You can rely on invisibility, or you can stick to the shadows/pillars. If it's a well lit hallway, and the camera has good range, the jammer may still work, and that is what the climb skill and gecko-items/wares/powers are for. Or wear a chameleon suit. The trick to dealing with cameras and other sensors is to be creative.

Also, a reason why corps would skimp on sensors, no one can watch them all. Agents may not understand what the feeds mean, and so won't call security. And metahumans can't watch all the cameras all the time. Or listen to all the mics. They can review the feeds later, but what if you wear a mask that hides all but the most prominant features? if you are a smallish person, wear some of that bulky gear, under clothing. Make yourself look different.

[mmmkay]

How do the jamming rules work? Does the camera realize it's being jammed? Or does the guard watching the camera realize it's being jammed?

Ok well in my example there were no shadows and no pillars. It literally was a box with a camera watching everything but the small area next to it. Whether you wear a chameleon suit or not it's still an infiltration test. Can someone help me imagine how the god of infiltration with 200 infiltration dice could make it into that door without hacking/invisibility etc?

The god of infiltration steps into the room but is so stealthy and agile that he makes himself identical to the wall somehow... lulz?

[Mäx]

The god of infiltration steps into the room but is so stealthy and agile that he makes himself identical to the wall somehow... lulz?

You do know what the chameleon suit does, right?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Infiltrarion is supposed to be used when THERE IS a way to be sneaky. Like, there is a hall with a rotating camera, or with blindspots. You roll AGI+Infiltration to get the best of these gaps. If your only way is through a narrou corridor, well, lit with no cover, your best roll is an Edge roll to check if there was someone looking at the camera at the moment.

Also, against astral surveilance. Use a cardboard box, make a whole, put some kind of one-way screen and hide inside it. No astral being will be able to see you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[mmmkay]

You do know what the chameleon suit does, right?

Yes. But -4 to visual perception is not equivalent to "cannot be seen".

Infiltrarion is supposed to be used when THERE IS a way to be sneaky. Like, there is a hall with a rotating camera, or with blindspots. You roll AGI+Infiltration to get the best of these gaps. If your only way is through a narrou corridor, well, lit with no cover, your best roll is an Edge roll to check if there was someone looking at the camera at the moment.

Also, against astral surveilance. Use a cardboard box, make a whole, put some kind of one-way screen and hide inside it. No astral being will be able to see you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

I had that sweet tech figured out. Thanks though. I really appreciate your first sentence, basically it's been the most helpful.

[Mäx]

Yes. But -4 to visual perception is not equivalent to "cannot be seen".

Your assuming that the guard monitoring the camera feed even has more then 4 dice for perception.
Also you do understand that i was responding to you thinking of "the guy walking in and turning himself identical to the wall" as thats exactly what the chameleon tech does.

[mmmkay]

Your assuming that the guard monitoring the camera feed even has more then 4 dice for perception.
Also you do understand that i was responding to you thinking of "the guy walking in and turning himself identical to the wall" as thats exactly what the chameleon tech does.

I can certainly break down the rules of infiltration rolls, but it doesn't make sense to me.

Like if you have a person with perception 6 intuition 6 a bunch of visual enhancements (+3) actively looking for the man in a yellow hat (+3) in grey room (+2) it seems like... how could you not find such a man? But then there would be that one adept with 20 agility and 9 infiltration that could numerically beat this score. Now agility 20 and infiltration 9 don't mean much to me, but I suppose that dude is so freaking slippery that he is undetectable. Perhaps my example doesn't really indicate my issue with it.

Whatever let's just roll some dice.

[Mäx]

Well the system kinda assumes that your actually infiltrating when using the skill.
Running in circles in an empty white room naked having painted your whole body orange doesn't exactly count as infiltrating, so how big an infiltrating pool you have doesn't really matter if your not actually trying to infiltrate.

[Yerameyahu]

It's true: you don't roll Perception when something is obvious.

[toturi]

It's true: you don't roll Perception when something is obvious.

False. You do not roll Perception when something is immediately noticeable.

Something "obvious" has a Threshold of 1. (p136 SR4A)

[toturi]

Well the system kinda assumes that your actually infiltrating when using the skill.
Running in circles in an empty white room naked having painted your whole body orange doesn't exactly count as infiltrating, so how big an infiltrating pool you have doesn't really matter if your not actually trying to infiltrate.

No. It does not matter how your character is infiltrating, it only matters that you have said your character is trying to do so. Thus it doesn't matter if you are running in circles in an empty white room naked having painted your whole body orange as long as you are using the Infiltration skill. You might get a lot of negative modifiers but if your Infiltration pool is large enough, you might still succeed despite your running in circles in an empty white room naked having painted your whole body orange.

[Mäx]

No. It does not matter how you are infiltrating, it only matters that you are. Thus it doesn't matter if you are running in circles in an empty white room naked having painted your whole body orange as long as you are using the Infiltration skill. You might get a lot of negative modifiers but if your Infiltration pool is large enough, you might still succeed despite your running in circles in an empty white room naked having painted your whole body orange.

Except that you're not using infiltrating skill when doing that.
Using the skill requiers you to actually be infiltrating.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, that's *obviously* what I meant, toturi. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[toturi]

Except that you're not using infiltrating skill when doing that.
Using the skill requiers you to actually be infiltrating.

Except that you are, despite doing that. Using the skill does require you to be infiltrating, but it does not say how. Usage of the skill even when clad in trappings not associated with the skill is still using the skill.

Consider that a prisoner trying to escape from prison. He is unfortunately covered in bright orange paint, has to get past a clear unobstructed area that has been painted white, has an implanted commlink that is emitting a siren and is running to reach his destination. I do not see why he isn't using infiltration or how this is functionally dissimiliar to the above example.

Well, that's *obviously* what I meant, toturi. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It was not immediately noticeable.

[Yerameyahu]

Are you sure? I wasn't trying to avoid detection, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Maybe he rolled a critical glitch.