Hackers in game Options

[klinktastic]

One way to combat new-ness to SR4(A) is to create a worksheet with the basic dice pools the character will have for standard situations. Talk, dodge, shoot, soak, etc, etc. Then when making rolls, you can just be like, roll this DP, but add 2 dice or whatever the case is. I agree with some of the suggestions to start small, then expand. If you play a series of one shots. Start basic, with social and basic combat. Next run, throw in rigger or hacking. The run after that, throw in some magic. The players will get a flavor of a couple different skill sets and will help me over all develop a sense of what kind of character they want to play. They might like something they played. Or they might like how someone else's character played.

Also, as you prep for runs. Research the specific thing you want to introduce into the game. Have your players read that section as well. Slowly, you'll end up covering the whole book.

[kzt]

I forget to say that one of biggest problems is that only me and a friend have some command on English, for the rest of the group reading just a small section on the rules is the closest thing to hell, not to mention doing it in the middle of the action. So I'll have to explain everything step by step.

I don't see hacking working out well given that limitation. The rules are hardly clear and well written, trying to do it under these circumstances? Maybe you'd you'd be better off just not bothering with the rules and just faking it?

[Cazacurdas]

I don't see hacking working out well given that limitation. The rules are hardly clear and well written, trying to do it under these circumstances? Maybe you'd you'd be better off just not bothering with the rules and just faking it?

you mean cheating?? I think I'm gonna follow the upper advice, social and phys. combat then rigger and hackers and finally some magic. Fortunately my I-also-can-read-some-English-without-imploding friend is the one wishing to run a hacker, but I'm getting afraid with you all telling me that the hacking rules are so confusing!

PS.: You can't imagine how much I'm learning!

[kzt]

Not cheating. More of a free-form narrative approach. You know what people want to do with hacking, you have an idea of what you want them to accomplish. You have an idea about how tough the target is and how skilled the PC is. so they describe what they want to do and roll some dice. If the plan isn't stupid and the roll seems reasonable compared to the roll of the defenders they achieve some/most/all of what they want. They completely hose it bad things happen, or they get bad info, etc.

[Emy]

you mean cheating??

It's not cheating if you're the one running the game. If you're running a game and you make things up in it, that's called "GMing".

Do this:

[...] You have an idea about how tough the target is and how skilled the PC is. so they describe what they want to do and roll some dice. If the plan isn't stupid and the roll seems reasonable compared to the roll of the defenders they achieve some/most/all of what they want. They completely hose it bad things happen, or they get bad info, etc.

To clarify, I'm not saying "you're the GM so blindside the players with whatever you feel like", but that it's your job to make the game work, and simplifying it and running it somewhat free-form like kzt said is probably the best way to do so. It's certainly what I'd do; just be sure to drop your players a warning that you're going to be doing hacking in a more narrative fashion so they don't start with incorrect preconceptions about how hacking is going to work in your game.

[Karoline]

I usually try to avoid the pre-generated characters, but this time... I know I could lose myself tweaking every little aspect on the sheet but my players could be easily overwhelmed and I pretend to keep the group tight.

There are a couple of threads around here that have big lists of 'pre-generated' characters made by the DS community that use only the basic rules, but fail to suck as spectacularly as the ones in the book.

[SleepIncarnate]

The Matrix rules can be simple or complicated. It definitely helps to have a little side card with a list of common dice pools (similar to the Matrix combat table already in the book, but more in depth). When it comes to running the Matrix, I would suggest starting with the basic rules from the core book, then once you're comfortable with them, move on to the advanced rules in Unwired. If he's not wanting to play a technomancer, then those are a set of rules you can ignore early on, as are the rigging ones if he wants to be an outright hacker. AI's are another thing that can be left out rules wise, appearing only as fluff if you want them. In fact, I would use this advice with any area. Start with just the SR4 core book for a few one or two shot runs while you get used to the rules, then start adding in things like Unwired, Street Magic, Arsenal, Augmentation, etc one at a time.

As for a basic, well rounded starting team, it depends on how many players your group has. Ideally you should have a combat specialist (ideally an actual street sam built both for taking and dealing damage), a magical specialist (specifically a mage/shaman, leave the Street Magic stuff alone until you're comfortable with magic), a face (who can backup the sam in dealing damage), and a Matrix specialist (mundane hacker, again no TM, AI, rigging, or Unwired). If you have more than 4 players, you can start adding in things like an infiltration specialist, an offensive combat specialist (i.e. a gun adept or anyone else specialized in dealing out lots of damage but not necessarily very good at taking it), a driver, a rigger, or any of the other areas.

[Wasabi]

I speed up the hacker hacking by having him roll 30 hacking+program tests, then starting 1d20 positions into the list. He doesnt roll, he just says what he is going to do and provided it isnt Matrix Perception or Cybercombat he just goes with it. The use of Edge is impacted by him only able to roll the edge rating after the fact (if not matrix perception or cybercombat which is where he spends edge anyways) but all in all it greatly speeds things up by him telling me what he is doing then me marking off the value and telling him what he see's as a result.

Since my player's hacker can get in a lot more stuff without undue slowing of the game its a pretty good tradeoff on his end.

[yesferatu]

I actually really like the hacking rules.
If you don't mind giving your hacker some love, it adds a ton of story and theme options.

1. Every node looks different. Styling on a nerdy spider's nexus could be anything from a VR stone age with dinosaurs to an alien planet.
It's all narration, so make your nodes unique. A node could look like an epic dragon battle or a wild west gun fight. Most GMs don't bother explaining the VR scene. Naturally, if your hacker is just rolling over and over it gets boring for players. Narration is both essential and cool.

2. Security on every node is different. Would a node have one giant monster program that does everything, or like 10 single program agents who all overwhelm intruders with attacks and tracking? My Ares nodes tend to have a couple of armored agents all doing different things vs. my Aztechnology nodes which zerg the hell out of hackers.

3. Every node has limitations. I usually give each access level different functions. Every account can't do everything. Let your hacker figure out what each account level can and can't do. Maybe you can't get into a certain area without an unhackable admin account. That's a perfect opportunity for the rest of the group to go grab an admin in the meat and interrogate the hell out of him.

Describe the matrix the same as you would describe a barrens dive bar or a corporate enclave.
If your GM doesn't bother to flesh it out, it's just ones and zeros.

[Malbur]

Personally, I like combining a hacker with a sniper role since a sniper already defaults to a observation/overwatch role in the team which meshes with this kind of hacking role. One of my favourite bits about SR4 is how much smoother it has made these dual role compared to previous versions.

That is exactly what my character is. I initially planned to play a sniper, but after realizing our group didn't have a hacker, made the changes to have this role as well. Its also a first character so I feel like it works well. Usually, I do my stuff at the same time as the mages do their thing (spirits and such) so everyone's rolling already and that way nobody is left out... besides the face and dedicated combat person. Though, the face usually does talking when nobody else does as well so that works, and the combat guy is also our driver and mechanic. Works out pretty well.

[Aku]

And i really think the combat guy is really the one to be left out more often than not.

[kzt]

Yup, if you can't so anything other then shoot people we'll just leave you in the truck until it's time to shoot someone.

[Daishi]

Yup, if you can't so anything other then shoot people we'll just leave you in the truck until it's time to shoot someone.

I first read that as "leave you in the trunk" and thought, "huh, I guess the trunk monkey is actually a popular character archetype."

[Emy]

I actually really like the hacking rules.

(Emphasis mine.)

Do you?

If you don't mind giving your hacker some love, it adds a ton of story and theme options.

1. Every node looks different. Styling on a nerdy spider's nexus could be anything from a VR stone age with dinosaurs to an alien planet.
It's all narration, so make your nodes unique. A node could look like an epic dragon battle or a wild west gun fight. Most GMs don't bother explaining the VR scene. Naturally, if your hacker is just rolling over and over it gets boring for players. Narration is both essential and cool.

2. Security on every node is different. Would a node have one giant monster program that does everything, or like 10 single program agents who all overwhelm intruders with attacks and tracking? My Ares nodes tend to have a couple of armored agents all doing different things vs. my Aztechnology nodes which zerg the hell out of hackers.

3. Every node has limitations. I usually give each access level different functions. Every account can't do everything. Let your hacker figure out what each account level can and can't do. Maybe you can't get into a certain area without an unhackable admin account. That's a perfect opportunity for the rest of the group to go grab an admin in the meat and interrogate the hell out of him.

Describe the matrix the same as you would describe a barrens dive bar or a corporate enclave.
If your GM doesn't bother to flesh it out, it's just ones and zeros.

You're talking about describing the matrix well, fleshing it out, differentiating between locations on it, and making places unique. These things aren't dependent on the matrix rules, and can be done just as easily be done while using relatively free-form hacking that ignores all of the wonkiness of actual rules themselves.

So, think about it. Is it really the hacking rules you like? Or is it the narrative possibilities that hacking offers?

[Ascalaphus]

I first read that as "leave you in the trunk" and thought, "huh, I guess the trunk monkey is actually a popular character archetype."

I wonder what would happen if I show this to the ork sammy in our group?

[Daishi]

If he's anything like our guy, the backup character becomes a heavy-weapons dwarf with a fondness for enclosed spaces.

[Draco18s]

I first read that as "leave you in the trunk" and thought, "huh, I guess the trunk monkey is actually a popular character archetype."

I did the same thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Which is why I try (emphasis on try) to get my gun bunnies into situations that they're no good at.

[yesferatu]

Nope, you're right Emy.
I like the idea of the matrix

The actual rules slow down my game, leave people out and piss me off.

[Cazacurdas]

The actual rules slow down my game, leave people out and piss me off.

That was my original question! I have only three players right now, a fourth one could be attending soon, and two of them have never played a cyberpunk game, so I'm trying to make SR as reachable as a I can! With this thread something has become clear to me, I'll add some spicy combat at first, then magic will do its appearing and finally all the hacking stuff will be added slowly.

The magic rules may be confusing, hard to manage, whatever... people are used to the "magic" concept in games. Hacking will be too new and too alien at the same time.

And for the beginning group... I'm gonna make a small group of shadowrunners, with the magician/shaman and the hacker as backups at "home", and I'll let the players to switch characters until they find a suitable one.

Playing a is-there-anything-to-shoot-at guy could be less than interesting, but, sincerely, almost everyone can understand an archetype like that. Lets say that the finishing touches will come along the adventures.