Possession Spirits and Spells, A few wonky scenarios to ponder Options

[Seidaku]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the intricacies of spirits using the Possession power, and I've come upon a few scenarios I don't rightly know how to handle. Perhaps those denizens of dumpshock more learned than I can provide some enlightenment.

1. If a spirit is possessing an inanimate object with an OR rating, how does that affect spells cast on it?
   
   If a spirit possesses a high-OR inanimate vessel, such as a commlink, does it receive any additional benefit when resisting spells? Would it be subject to spells that normally only target inanimate objects, such as "Demolish Electronics"? What about spells that normally would only work on living targets, such as Shapechange, or Increase Attribute? What would happen if such a spell were cast upon the spirit while it were possessing the object, and then it stopped possessing it? Would the spells be disrupted, or continue to affect the now-lifeless target?
   
   
2. How do spells cast upon the vessel prior to possession function after possession? What about those cast during possession? Do they stay on the vessel or the spirit after it stops possessing?
   
   Consider the following scenarios:
   
   
   • The vessel has a spell such as Increased Attribute active upon it at the time it is possessed. Does the possessing spirit gain the benefits of said spell? What about if it was a spell like Shapechange? Control Thoughts?
   • The vessel is possessed, and then any of the above spells are cast upon it. What happens? What about Mind Probe? Would someone casting Mind Probe be able to probe the mind of the spirit, or the vessel? Both?
   • If the spirit/vessel has a spell like Shapechange or Improved Attribute cast upon it during possession, and the possession ends, what happens to the spell? What if it was a mana spell, like Borrow Sense, or Astral Armor? Would it stay on the vessel, or on the now-astral spirit? Neither? What about the effects of a spell like Alter Memory? Would that alter the spirit's memories, the vessel's, both? Would the effects change after the spirit finishes its possession?

[Raiki]

Okay, I'm going to say right up front that I don't have any rules to back this up, but as a GM this is how I would handle these situations.

1) For an inanimate object possessed by a spirit, I would have the spirit resist any mana spells using its own attributes, but resist any physical spells with OR. The item would be a valid target for any spell that affects objects, or any mana spell that affects a target mentally. Regarding Increase [Attribute] or Shapechange, I would personally not count a possessed 'link as a living being, and wouldn't allow those spells to be cast on it to begin with.


2) As far as spells cast specifically on the spirit or the vessel individually, they would stay on whichever target they were cast on, regardless of whether they were cast before or after the possession.

For example, a spirit of man casts the Detect Lies spell cast on itself before possessing a target. The target was under the effects of an Increase [Intuition] spell. While possessed, the resultant entity is targeted with a sustained mana spell. After the possession ends, the vessel would retain its Increase [Intuition] and the spirit would retain the Detect Lies and unnamed mana spell. Had the third spell been a physical spell, it would have remained on the vessel.

So basically, Mana=Spirit, Physical=Vessel.

Again, I don't know if there are any rules to back this up, I'm AFB and the FAQ doesn't specifically answer either of these questions. This is just how I would handle the situation if it came up in my game. Hopefully, if there are any relevant rules, someone else will be able to cite them.




~R~

[jakephillips]

Okay, I'm going to say right up front that I don't have any rules to back this up, but as a GM this is how I would handle these situations.

1) For an inanimate object possessed by a spirit, I would have the spirit resist any mana spells using its own attributes, but resist any physical spells with OR. The item would be a valid target for any spell that affects objects, or any mana spell that affects a target mentally. Regarding Increase [Attribute] or Shapechange, I would personally not count a possessed 'link as a living being, and wouldn't allow those spells to be cast on it to begin with.


2) As far as spells cast specifically on the spirit or the vessel individually, they would stay on whichever target they were cast on, regardless of whether they were cast before or after the possession.

For example, a spirit of man casts the Detect Lies spell cast on itself before possessing a target. The target was under the effects of an Increase [Intuition] spell. While possessed, the resultant entity is targeted with a sustained mana spell. After the possession ends, the vessel would retain its Increase [Intuition] and the spirit would retain the Detect Lies and unnamed mana spell. Had the third spell been a physical spell, it would have remained on the vessel.

So basically, Mana=Spirit, Physical=Vessel.

I agree with his assessment

Again, I don't know if there are any rules to back this up, I'm AFB and the FAQ doesn't specifically answer either of these questions. This is just how I would handle the situation if it came up in my game. Hopefully, if there are any relevant rules, someone else will be able to cite them.




~R~

[Vajramukti]

As Seidaku's GM, I find this line of inquiry both intriguing and worrying.

[Raiki]

As Seidaku's GM, I find this line of inquiry both intriguing and worrying.

You could always do what my GM did. When I told him that I was playing a possession mage in our upcoming game, he said "Great! Just remember that characters that make the rest of the party redundant get introduced to Bubba the Love Troll".


Edit: Also, welcome to Dumpshock!

~R~

[Dakka Dakka]

Here is my take on the questions:

1. If a spirit is possessing an inanimate object with an OR rating, how does that affect spells cast on it?

During the act of possession a new entity (Vessel+Spirit) is created. As such OR would not be an issue, since the entity ceases to be an inanimate object. Only The entity's spell resistance roll is important.
The composite entity is no longer electronics, so Demolish Electronics would not work.
If you consider a spirit a living target, the composite should be one a s well.
You cannot target the spirit alone with spells while it is possessing a vessel just as you cannot target an arm with a manabolt.

How do spells cast upon the vessel prior to possession function after possession? What about those cast during possession? Do they stay on the vessel or the spirit after it stops possessing?

Spirit+Vessel is different from both the spirit and the the vessel. As such spells don't carrya over. I'm not sure if they just don't give any benefits or if they are broken.

• The vessel has a spell such as Increased Attribute active upon it at the time it is possessed. Does the possessing spirit gain the benefits of said spell? What about if it was a spell like Shapechange? Control Thoughts?

No, no and no

The vessel is possessed, and then any of the above spells are cast upon it. What happens? What about Mind Probe? Would someone casting Mind Probe be able to probe the mind of the spirit, or the vessel? Both?

All spells affect the composite entity of Spirit+Vessel.

If the spirit/vessel has a spell like Shapechange or Improved Attribute cast upon it during possession, and the possession ends, what happens to the spell? What if it was a mana spell, like Borrow Sense, or Astral Armor? Would it stay on the vessel, or on the now-astral spirit? Neither? What about the effects of a spell like Alter Memory? Would that alter the spirit's memories, the vessel's, both? Would the effects change after the spirit finishes its possession?

No.
Welcome to Dumpshock

[Seidaku]

Spirit+Vessel is different from both the spirit and the the vessel. As such spells don't carrya over. I'm not sure if they just don't give any benefits or if they are broken.
No, no and no
All spells affect the composite entity of Spirit+Vessel.
No.

While I can see the logic to your arguments, what you've basically just described is that a spirit possessing a vessel serves as an instant, unresisted, unstoppable counterspell to any and all spells affecting the vessel at the time of possession. Not only is that likely undesirable from a game balance perspective, but there's nothing in the rules or the fluff to suggest that such a major side effect would occur.

Welcome to Dumpshock

Thanks, but I've actually been here for quite a while (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I suspect that the scenarios I've outlined above are simply situations that the author(s) didn't happen to think of, so there's no hard and fast RAW answer for how to handle them. I think that many of the posters have had some reasonable ideas for how one might house rule them, and I suspect that if and when such scenarios might pop up, having a chat with your GM about what makes sense for your own game is the best way to handle things.

My own impression, given both the flavor and the mechanics of the Possession rules, is that any spells currently affecting the vessel continue to affect it after possession begins, but only those which affect its body. The vessel's mind is, from all accounts, separate from the possessing spirit, and only able to watch helplessly at the events which transpire during the possession. Hence, any spells affecting the vessel's mind at the time of possession would not carry over; Increase Logic/Control Thoughts/Control Emotion/Compel Truth/etc would still be 'active', they would just be affecting the vessel's (imprisoned) mind, not the spirit's. Any such spells cast during the possession would, logically, affect the spirit, not the vessel, since it is the spirit whose mind is in control. It seems logical that you could cast something like Control Thoughts or use an adept power like Commanding Voice to force the possessing spirit to release the vessel, for instance. Likewise, if you've cast something like Increase Charisma on the spirit-possessed vessel, you're affecting the spirit's Charisma, not the vessel's; it makes sense that the spell would continue to affect the spirit after possession rather than transfer to the vessel.

[Yerameyahu]

Possession isn't irresistible, and who cares about dispelling? It's not D&D. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Raiki]

I've heard from an old gaming buddy, that when your mage is levitating about a quarter mile up, trying to rescue a teamate that just got knocked unconcious and thrown into a helicopter...you care about dispelling quite a bit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


~R~

[Yerameyahu]

Haha, that's true, Raiki. However, are you likely to get Possessed at that point?

[Raiki]

Haha, that's true, Raiki. However, are you likely to get Possessed at that point?

*shrug* About as likely as you are to get possessed at any other point. I mean, how many possession spirits/mages are just wandering about downtown Seattle? Even for a 'runner, the odds of ever encountering one are still in the thousands to one category.


~R~

[Raiki]

Bah! Double post. Teach me to post from my primitive commlink rather than my PC.

[Yerameyahu]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I dunno about you, but my runners never 'accidentally' meet *anyone*. But I can see we already agree: possession-as-dispelling is not important.

[Dakka Dakka]

I've heard from an old gaming buddy, that when your mage is levitating about a quarter mile up, trying to rescue a teamate that just got knocked unconcious and thrown into a helicopter...you care about dispelling quite a bit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I'd worry a lot more about the mounted miniguns on the chopper. Levitation can be restarted during the fall and possibly out of sight of the dispeller in the helicopter, life can't.

I don't know how a levitating mage can catch up to a helicopter, but that is a different story.

[Raiki]

I'd worry a lot more about the mounted miniguns on the chopper. Levitation can be restarted during the fall and possibly out of sight of the dispeller in the helicopter, life can't.

I don't know how a levitating mage can catch up to a helicopter, but that is a different story.

Well, according to the guy who told me the story, the hacker had already established control over the helicopter, and deactivated all the weapons. He also tried to land it, but there was "a strange resistance" whenever he tried to make it fly downward. So the mage decided to just fly up and grab their ally. Turns out, the "strange resistance" was another mage casting his own levitate spell on the chopper. One dispel check later, the party mage found out that he was less durable than the ground.




~R~

[Neraph]

I don't know how a levitating mage can catch up to a helicopter, but that is a different story.

I have a 400 BP character that can do Mach 4.93. It involves a F20 spell and Movement.

...another mage casting his own levitate spell on the chopper...

You know Levitate is (Successes * 100 kilos), right? We're talking a massive amount of successes to get a chopper Levitated.

[Dakka Dakka]

I have a 400 BP character that can do Mach 4.93. It involves a F20 spell and Movement.

Now I wonder, how does a starting character get his Magic to at least 10? Power Foci only add bonus dice. They do not increase magic!

You know Levitate is (Successes * 100 kilos), right? We're talking a massive amount of successes to get a chopper Levitated.

My thoughts exactly. In the original post I read nothing about that though.

[Yerameyahu]

Maybe it's some Edge-related twinkery. It doesn't really seem relevant, though, because no one would ever play that character, even if the GM ran the rules that way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) This is why we need jetpacks.

[Dakka Dakka]

Edge can't raise Magic either. You need at least MAG 10 to cast a Force 20 spell. This can't be done at CharGen, not even with Vampires or is there a rule for them to ignore their maximum Attributes?

Technically not a jet pack but the Sparrow comes close. Any Idea why the image shows rotors while the description says vector thrust jets? So much for reading it says engines.

[Yerameyahu]

Doesn't a vampire Magic go up to 12 through totally stupid trickery? I forget, because it's not worth knowing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Neraph]

Doesn't a vampire Magic go up to 12 through totally stupid trickery? I forget, because it's not worth knowing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

11. Nosferatu can get to 14.

But any Magic 6 with a Magic Pact can get it above 10 once per day for a few Combat Turns.

[Machiavelli]

12 for a vampire and 18 for an nosferatu should be right. Your essence may drop to 5 at starting time, but it doesn´t lower your maximum. Wasn´t there even an exaple that pointed that out in the description of the infected?

[Yerameyahu]

Do you have a page reference? The Mutaqua is listed as being able to drain explicitly up to 18, but Nosferatu are listed as 3*natural Essence max; that might be 5, or it might be 6. I only ask out of curiosity, because it would never come up in a real (i.e., not involving vampire exploits) game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Neraph]

You're talking about using Essence Drain to raise their Essence and then separately raise their Magic. I'm talking about using Essence Drain to fuel their Magic.

Vampire (/Dzoo-noo-qua, ect) can drain up to 12, start with 5, and boost their Magic by 6. That = 11.

Nosferatu (and Mutaqua, though those are not in the player options [=(]) can drain up to 18, start with Magic 5, and boost their Magic by 9. That = 14.

Any normal Magician can start at Magic 6, and get a Magic Pact to gain +4 to their Magic for a few CT 1/day. That = 10, overchannel to 20 + Levitate + Movement = Mach 4.93.

[Raiki]

I have a 400 BP character that can do Mach 4.93. It involves a F20 spell and Movement.


You know Levitate is (Successes * 100 kilos), right? We're talking a massive amount of successes to get a chopper Levitated.

I just figured I'd put both halves of your post a little closer together. For perspective, you understand. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)




Edit: And if anyone cares, it was a very small helicopter. *shrug* We gave the GM a few strange looks, but you can't question "god".


~R~